Professional solar= financial scam almost every where USA vs regular utility rates.

[foo1bar]

might want to click on the google roof top solar link in my original post. that's bad advice. you would loose money in NC, SC, GA, and TX for sure.

the whole point of my post was to NOT generalize where solar can be good or bad. for people to understand how net metering works in their state and if their co op, municipality, or utility even offer it in their city.

If your point of your post was to NOT generalize, you failed.

You said "Cost of $3.44/kw BEFORE any rebates or tax credits $2.58 after tax credits."
And your subject line was "Professional solar= financial scam almost every where USA vs regular utility rates." - which is certainly not true, and definitely a generalization.

I pointed out that $3.44/W (using the correct units) is significantly more than a savvy consumer should be paying.
Years ago it was $2.75/W to $3/W.
Now it is probably even less, depending on where you live.

google rooftop shows me $3.02/W in my location and $2.88/W for a system at an address I chose in Durham, North Carolina.
Not sure what your point is that I should click on the link to google rooftop - it seems to support my assertion that a savvy consumer should be paying $3/W or less.

But here you are giving gross generalizations to all 50 states that I guarantee are bad advise in many of them.

It may be a generalization that in the vast majority of places $3/W or cheaper is a reasonable price for solar installations.
BUT
it is a generalization that I think applies to the vast majority of locations.
I live in a high cost area, and it's true here.
So there are going to be very few places where it isn't true that you can do under $3/W for a solar install. (my guess would be everywhere but HI and AK and maybe some very remote spots where there's no competition.)
And it is in direct response to YOUR generalization of "$3.44/kw"

LOL, you ever look at a truth in lending statement from a solar company. The interest rates are wayyyy higher than 6%.

Not in >5 years.
IIRC they were not attractive options at the time.
If your point was to complain about how some companies offer "financing" that's really crappy for the consumer, you really failed in your subject line and your starting post.
That issue is not unique to solar. And it certainly is sad that there are a lot of consumers who use really bad financing options because they don't do the research they should. But that's pretty tangential to your original post.


There are certainly many companies that are not a good choice to the consumer. And a lot of them doing a lot of advertising.
But that does not mean that consumers can't find solutions that make financial sense in majority of the US like you claim.

If your point was that consumers should be cautious and carefully evaluate what they're buying, I'd agree with you.

But that isn't what you started this thread with.

[heimdm]

I looked through my quotes from local dealers (Bloomington, IN). and ground based solar quotes from $1.26/watt to $1.80/watt. That hits a payback of about 7 years.

[khanh dam]

I looked through my quotes from local dealers (Bloomington, IN). and ground based solar quotes from $1.26/watt to $1.80/watt. That hits a payback of about 7 years.

Who the heck is installing for that cheap. Ground mounts typically cost $.20/w and materials alone are around $.90/w so they are making a whopping .16/w. a 10kw system would be $1600 gross profit before taking out labor and overhead? sign up for that price before they go out of business.

But thank you for actually looking up what installers are charging instead of just right fighting me.

[khanh dam]

If your point of your post was to NOT generalize, you failed.
You said "Cost of $3.44/kw BEFORE any rebates or tax credits $2.58 after tax credits."
And your subject line was "Professional solar= financial scam almost every where USA vs regular utility rates." - which is certainly not true, and definitely a generalization.

No That is the specific rate quoted by google solar roof project for my city on the link I provided. Maybe instead of right fighting you should read my post. Furthermore google rooftop shows a solar loan in the duram, NC, area results in a price that is a NEGATIVE INVESTMENT, WHICH proves my point, not yours.

I could care less about your opinion, you have posted zero quote from local installers showing if they provide good value or not. Just like other typical responses. Like I initially said, show the numbers. If you can't show sale price numbers then you have no data to contribute, just your opinion. this very website lets you submit your info and get quotes from local solar loan companies.

[khanh dam]

Most systems that I have gotten estimates on are more than $3/watt which puts the ROI way out there.
While I don't agree those installations are a scam I do think people need to do the math before they take the leap into solar.

click on the "cut my bill" link at the top of this forum. Get several quotes. report back the numbers. I guarantee at least one will be a negative ROI, which is a flat out scam. and would not be surprised if the majority of quotes are close to break even after 26 years. it's one thing to have an opinion, and it's another thing all together to get actual quotes and analyze them.

There are about a dozen states where financed solar loans does actually work due to high utility rates, high amount of sunshine, very good utility rebates, or very good SREC creds ($5000/year in Washington DC) or a combination of factors. but for the other 38 states, not so much.

While I realize this forum attracts a more research intensive group of people, and DIY, the fact is most residential solar is paid by solar loans and installed by pros.

[Ampster]

......, the fact is most residential solar is paid by solar loans and installed by pros.

I do not have any way of verifying whether that is data from a reliable source or the opinion of an anonymous poster on the Internet.

[organic farmer]

... the fact is most residential solar is paid by solar loans and installed by pros.

I do not have any way of verifying whether that is data from a reliable source or the opinion of an anonymous poster on the Internet.

I have attended many workshops and public 'discussion's on Solar Power.

Some have been hosted by a group of professional installers and members of our state Public Utility Commission.
At those meetings, they often quote that there is X number of solar installations in this state, blah blah blah.

When I have asked them how many solar installs are off-grid, they simply brush off the question, saying that off-grid is such a tiny percentage that nobody bothers to even count them.

Upon further digging, what I have been told is that the power companies internally publish the number of net-metering contracts they hold, and that is the number that they represent as 'total solar' in our state.

I also attend an off-grid self-sufficiency fair each summer [currently preparing for its fiftieth year], at the workshops they host, nearly 100% of participation is from the off-grid solar community.

But which set of numbers is correct?

[khanh dam]

I do not have any way of verifying whether that is data from a reliable source or the opinion of an anonymous poster on the Internet.

So funny Ampster. Nice way to "Right Fight". Never let your ego get in the way of facts.

[Cshama]

I was highly skeptical about solar being a bad deal especially now I have just signed up for it. When I read khanhs post I thought there must be some mistake.

But now I agree.

It really barely makes sense for me when previously I thought it was a slam dunk. I have a 5 year payoff theoretically but that is not taking into account the cost of money, the potential changes in net metering , the possibility I will move sooner then 5 years,the chance the energy projections don't pan out
For me the benefits are a little more complex. I live near a big river and the wind batters my roof. Perhaps the panels will protect my new roof. Also if my electricity costs are $4k a year and I retire, then the amount I need to invest to pay that $4k would be $100k or about $80k more then the amount I'm paying for solar. In addition Coned is increasing their prices by 4% in each of the next 3 years. And finally I am overproducing by about 15% which will allow me to live in a more comfortable house.

But yes I'm still surprised at how poorly the numbers worked out. And I'm paying $1.14/watt after incentives.

[khanh dam]

they simply brush off the question, saying that off-grid is such a tiny percentage that nobody bothers to even count them......
But which set of numbers is correct?

They are right off grid is tiny tiny tiny. both number are correct. utilities count grid tie solar and offgrid conferences count off grid users.

What makes you feel/think the off grid solar is a significant percentage of solar installs?

[khanh dam]

It really barely makes sense for me when previously I thought it was a slam dunk.

you will do fine even if you sell your home before 5 years you should get about half what you invested back as increased home value.
link below shows 22% ROI which is way better than stock market for retirement.
skip/scroll down past red error messages to see data:

http://pvcalc.org/PVcalc?scale=1&t_useful=25&nominal_power=18&annual_yield=1313&r_degradation=0.5&t_guarantee=20&p_guarantee=0.21&p_guar_own=0&cons_own=0&p_income_now=0.21&r_inflation_energy=4&p_setup=1140&p_lease=0&r_insure=0.5&r_maintenance=0.5&t_finance=0&r_finance=6&own_funds=100&disagio=3&reserve_yield=3.5&r_inflation=2&loan_type=simple&redeem_type=uniform&tax_rate=0&lang=en&ccy=USD&index_linked=0&

[Ampster]

Has anyone reconciled the building report data with the net metering data? My AC capacity with my utility is 3.8 kW but the DC capacity with my county building department for my home is 9 kW. It is further complicated by the high DC to AC ratio of my GT system and the export restrictions on my self installed hybrid system.

Anectdotal information from at least four online forums would suggest that there is a broad spectrum of unpermitted systems out there, especially in states with high rates. I do not know if those are significant or whether they have any impact on load trends.

[Cshama]

Has anyone reconciled the building report data with the net metering data? My AC capacity with my utility is 3.8 kW but the DC capacity with my county building department for my home is 9 kW. It is further complicated by the high DC to AC ratio of my GT system and the export restrictions on my self installed hybrid system.

Anectdotal information from at least four online forums would suggest that there is a broad spectrum of unpermitted systems out there, especially in states with high rates. I do not know if those are significant or whether they have any impact on load trends.

Thank you. Comforting

[foo1bar]

No That is the specific rate quoted by google solar roof project for my city on the link I provided. Maybe instead of right fighting you should read my post.

First - WTF is "right fighting"? Is that some new left-wing liberal idiocy?

Second - I clicked on the link - And it took me to google rooftop. And I told you what I found searching there - $3.02/W for my neighborhood, and $2.88 for a place in Durham.
I did not see $3.44/W. Maybe if you supply the address and the wattage I might be able to replicate your results - but that is getting tangential to what I assumed was your main point - that solar is a "scam almost everywhere in the US"

[QUOTE=khanh dam;n422656]
I could care less about your opinion, you have posted zero quote from local installers showing if they provide good value or not.
[quote]
No - I posted better than that - actual completed installations that have real costs to install (not lowball prices in a quote that go up later). And actual production data from multiple years - not just estimates from the installer or from a website.

this very website lets you submit your info and get quotes from local solar loan companies.

I'm still getting phone calls asking me about solar - probably from when I put my name and number out there >5 years ago.
It's tapered off so it's only about 10/year. I'm not going to make it so I get even more spam calls just to prove my point to somebody on a message board.

The fact is that here in a place that has higher costs to install (~$3/W), and not unreasonable electricity costs ($.11/kwh), and decent, but not great sun, solar makes financial sense.
So if it is good here, it is going to be good in a lot of other places that have one or more of lower costs to install, higher electiricity costs, and better insolation.

It simply is not true that solar is a "financial scam in most of the US".
There are a lot of companies that sell solar that will try to make excessive profit off of you.
And there are loans that some of those companies use that would make most people cringe.
I certainly advocate that people should figure out what they're getting for their money, and whether it will make sense over a 5-15 year timeframe. Personally I think 7-10 years is a good "break even" timeframe - more than that and it quite likely isn't worth doing.for financial reasons. And in a lot of the US, I think you can see that timeframe - maybe not NC or GA, but lots of other places you can.

[RichardCullip]

What is "right fighting"? Is that some new left-wing liberal idiocy?

.

A right-fighter is someone who gets overly emotional or angry when people do not agree with them and their opinions or beliefs. A right-fighter is someone who insists on having the last word in an argument or refuses to back down no matter what.