My panels are finally online!

[khanh dam]

I live in an HOA and no one in the HOA monitors progress on any home's solar panels or any other improvements. Why would an HOA want to be involved with that? Especially on a level that you describe.

Some solar companies sell at $4 or more per watt now that is truly a fools errand because the ROI is so long out that the choice to buy doesnt' make financial sense on day 1.

[J.P.M.]

I live in an HOA and no one in the HOA monitors progress on any home's solar panels or any other improvements. Why would an HOA want to be involved with that? Especially on a level that you describe.

Some solar companies sell at $4 or more per watt now that is truly a fools errand because the ROI is so long out that the choice to buy doesnt' make financial sense on day 1.

A few reasons why:

1.) For the same reasons some folks buy into an HOA in the first place.
2.) The folks in this HOA have someone on their side who can provide honest and I believe informed opinion and information if they want it. It usually takes a while for that to become apparent.
3.) With respect to alternate energy improvements, the CC & R's are pro solar and take a long term view while attempting to consider and various points of view. More than a few jobs that could have been problematic have been made better and more productive by simple design changes that followed the building code. There is about 30% solar penetration in this HOA. As mentioned above, in the 10+ years I've had the responsibility, one job was rejected.
4.) While this isn't a retirement community, the average age here is well past 55. Most any children around here are grandchildren. Most folks are retired. It's an upscale community. There's no natural gas. Most homes are all electric. The vendors know this and all of it combines to make for easy pickings, especially solar conmen. The vendors know someone up here is watching out for residents.
5.) While prices here per installed STC W are pretty much in line w/the rest of the county, it seems, aside from 3 infant mortality panels, a dozen or so failed M190's, M215's and the usual SolarEdge problems, over the last 10 years most installs are pretty trouble free. I'd like to think the HOA's policies, and positive and proactive solar attitude contributed to those two attributes. People still get screwed by vendors taking advantage of folks' solar ignorance, but I believe it happens less often in this HOA.

As for cost effectiveness, folks up here know they can get very particular information about solar process economics as it relates to them if they want it. A few avail themselves. Most don't. Until the last couple of years, most all the PV installs in this HOA (including mine) needed more than 8-10 yrs. or so to break even. Most folks are clueless about such things and merely mimic what the peddlers spew or repeat the last thing on the subject that got poured into their brain by Dumfux News. A lot of what I see is monkey see-monkey do, keep up with the Joneses type of patterns with solar installs having a tendency to cluster in neighborhoods. If such folks knew what I think I may know, one consequence would be a lot fewer solar arrays in this HOA with the ones that did exist being a lot smaller.

As for fools' errands, given the wealth of info around here from many sources, if someone around here pays more than ~ $3.00/STC W before tax credit, with ground mounts more, depending on particulars, they are indeed fools. As always has been and ever shall be, world without end, there's a lot of fools around.

[rbridges]

A few reasons why:

1.) For the same reasons some folks buy into an HOA in the first place.
2.) The folks in this HOA have someone on their side who can provide honest and I believe informed opinion and information if they want it. It usually takes a while for that to become apparent.
3.) With respect to alternate energy improvements, the CC & R's are pro solar and take a long term view while attempting to consider and various points of view. More than a few jobs that could have been problematic have been made better and more productive by simple design changes that followed the building code. There is about 30% solar penetration in this HOA. As mentioned above, in the 10+ years I've had the responsibility, one job was rejected.
4.) While this isn't a retirement community, the average age here is well past 55. Most any children around here are grandchildren. Most folks are retired. It's an upscale community. There's no natural gas. Most homes are all electric. The vendors know this and all of it combines to make for easy pickings, especially solar conmen. The vendors know someone up here is watching out for residents.
5.) While prices here per installed STC W are pretty much in line w/the rest of the county, it seems, aside from 3 infant mortality panels, a dozen or so failed M190's, M215's and the usual SolarEdge problems, over the last 10 years most installs are pretty trouble free. I'd like to think the HOA's policies, and positive and proactive solar attitude contributed to those two attributes. People still get screwed by vendors taking advantage of folks' solar ignorance, but I believe it happens less often in this HOA.

As for cost effectiveness, folks up here know they can get very particular information about solar process economics as it relates to them if they want it. A few avail themselves. Most don't. Until the last couple of years, most all the PV installs in this HOA (including mine) needed more than 8-10 yrs. or so to break even. Most folks are clueless about such things and merely mimic what the peddlers spew or repeat the last thing on the subject that got poured into their brain by Dumfux News. A lot of what I see is monkey see-monkey do, keep up with the Joneses type of patterns with solar installs having a tendency to cluster in neighborhoods. If such folks knew what I think I may know, one consequence would be a lot fewer solar arrays in this HOA with the ones that did exist being a lot smaller.

As for fools' errands, given the wealth of info around here from many sources, if someone around here pays more than ~ $3.00/STC W before tax credit, with ground mounts more, depending on particulars, they are indeed fools. As always has been and ever shall be, world without end, there's a lot of fools around.

I would have loved to have someone like yourself to lean on during this process. I live in middle Georgia, and I don't know anyone personally that has installed anything like mine. In fact many people have asked me about it. Unlike California where entire cities have these setups. Anyway, I think my ROI is around 8-10 years with tax credit. I based it on current usage and no electricity price increases; I wanted to be conservative. Georgia power literally doubles their summertime rates during june-september once you pass 500kwh. Same usage for last December and July resulted in bills of 280 and 490, respectively. Very excited to see the change over the next 12 months.

[khanh dam]

2.) The folks in this HOA have someone on their side who can provide honest and I believe informed opinion and information if they want it......... As mentioned above, in the 10+ years I've had the responsibility, one job was rejected.
4.) While this isn't a retirement community, the average age here is well past 55. Most any children around here are grandchildren. Most folks are retired. It's an upscale community. There's no natural gas. Most homes are all electric. The vendors know this and all of it combines to make for easy pickings, especially solar conmen. The vendors know someone up here is watching out for residents.
5.) ......... aside from 3 infant mortality panels, a dozen or so failed M190's, M215's and the usual SolarEdge problems, over the last 10 years most installs are pretty trouble free. I'd like to think the HOA's policies, and positive and proactive solar attitude contributed to those two attributes. People still get screwed by vendors taking advantage of folks' solar ignorance, but I believe it happens less often in this HOA.
...........................most all the PV installs in this HOA (including mine) needed more than 8-10 yrs. or so to break even. Most folks are clueless about such things and merely mimic what the peddlers spew or repeat the last thing on the subject that got poured into their brain by Dumfux News..............
.

do you get paid to review these systems in your neighborhood? Seems like a lot of work to volunteer for. Sounds like you providing free diagnostics services too if they are telling you what panels and micro inverters are failing later on. If over the last 10 years most installs have been trouble free why is Tesla on your **** list? They are using the same type of panels and equipment other installer do and the AHJ should catch most things if done incorrectly.

Most Solar equipment is made to be maintenance free for 25 years is the main reason you see so little issue IMHO.

I went through Tesla's picture, reviews and only thing that raised an eyebrow was photos showing random holes in the ceiling, I assume to access the attic. Most installers would never do that to get to the attic and would just lay conduit on the roof. Some complained problem made them loose several hundred dollars of solar electricity before resolved, but in the same breath never acknowledge that Tesla's price is thousands less, net positive income even with the headache of system not working 100%.

common conman trick is to estimate annual energy price increase of 5% or more so that can make return of investment down to 7 years vs 12 years. From what I have read most utilities only have about 2% increase in cost if that.

[J.P.M.]

do you get paid to review these systems in your neighborhood? Seems like a lot of work to volunteer for. Sounds like you providing free diagnostics services too if they are telling you what panels and micro inverters are failing later on. If over the last 10 years most installs have been trouble free why is Tesla on your **** list? They are using the same type of panels and equipment other installer do and the AHJ should catch most things if done incorrectly.

Most Solar equipment is made to be maintenance free for 25 years is the main reason you see so little issue IMHO.

I went through Tesla's picture, reviews and only thing that raised an eyebrow was photos showing random holes in the ceiling, I assume to access the attic. Most installers would never do that to get to the attic and would just lay conduit on the roof. Some complained problem made them loose several hundred dollars of solar electricity before resolved, but in the same breath never acknowledge that Tesla's price is thousands less, net positive income even with the headache of system not working 100%.

common conman trick is to estimate annual energy price increase of 5% or more so that can make return of investment down to 7 years vs 12 years. From what I have read most utilities only have about 2% increase in cost if that.

No, I do not get paid. Just my altruistic and neighborly nature I guess.

But seriously, all HOA board and committee positions in my HOA are volunteer and unpaid.

I do often ask a few socratic type questions when dealing with homeowners about HOA matters and projects the homeowners are presenting for review and approval which usually illicits questions back from homeowners about what they are wanting to do, but do not provide advice unless asked and, as in my P.E. days, limit such advice to areas where I claim engineering competence. Nor do I express opinions about vendors or service providers beyond the factual limits of my experience.

Not that it's any of your or anyone else's business, but as far as what it takes of my time and my effort for community involvement with my HOA, much less time and effort has been put into such endeavors than the time and effort spent rooting around this forum - as the 13,000+ posts attributed to me here may confirm.

Besides, I've been retired for many years, have more time than money, more money than brains and losing all 3 at precipitous rates.

However, since you seem curious about what may motivate me: I changed careers in the mid '70's after being a reasonably successful peddler of industrial process equipment, returned to school to become a mechanical engineer (with, I'd add, a somewhat substantial pay cut) because of an interest in and curiosity about solar, alternate energy and conservation and ways to use those things to help stay warm while not going broke doing so in Buffalo, NY.

Even though my subsequent engineering career was not connected with any of those things, I was mostly involved with the professional engineering, design and analysis of process and power generation systems for industries and utilities. Still, my interest in alternate energy, solar energy in particular, has always been like a solid part time endeavor. That interest continues and is the reason for my ongoing endeavors here, in my HOA, and elsewhere.

As for your comment/implication about SolarCity/Tesla's failure rates being comparable to that of other vendors, I'd say that's due more to the robustness of well designed solar equipment components and their simplicity than what I've seen of SolarCity/Tesla's quality and the safety of their designs/installations. Most of their systems don't fail in spite of their efforts, not because of them. So, in a sense, you and I seem to agree on component quality.

I've reviewed/monitored about 150 PV installs totaling about 20,000 or so panels around here. about 20 vendors and about as many panel mfgs. About 20 of the installs have been SolarCity/Tesla. In an industry with all too many "Larry with a ladder" type vendors, that outfit is characterized by some of the most unprofessional, poorly or non informed people I've ever come across. an example of one common SolarCity/Tesla attribute: On SolarCity jobs, I'd rarely talk to the same person twice. Lots of turnover. Also, and strange to me anyway, I'd often wind up talking (or trying to make sense) to folks in different cities about the same install. One particular job had me talking to offices in Las Vegas (before they pulled out, leaving all Las Vegas customers w/out support BTW), Portland, OR, and Sacramento. The outfit seems to be a revolving door of nitwits who can't even spell solar much less know anything about it. On installation crews, not that other vendors don't do similar, but more commonly I seem to see SolarCity/Tesla installation labor coming from the Big Box parking lot 7 A.M. employment agency. The list goes on.

After all that I've seen and from what I think I've learned over the last 45 years of being an engineer and also around solar energy, I wouldn't let SolarCity Tesla personnel on my property.

Not only do they give solar energy a black eye with what I view as their sales deceptions and poor project design and execution, that if nothing else, makes life more difficult for reputable vendors, more importantly, I believe some of what they do may well be dangerous. I know most of the A.I's around here. They work hard and with diligence most of the time but they don't catch everything and sometimes they don't try as hard as may be necessary. About half the time, they don't go on a roof.

Q to you: Besides Tesla's pictures as you've describe above, what experience do you have with respect to dealings with SolarCity/Tesla?

[azdave]

It's only an 8kw system, but I'm pretty excited.

8kW seems large to me. We have a 6.6kW grid-tie in Phoenix. It supplies more than our needs plus we average a $100 account credit each April when the utility pays us for our excess banked energy. Congrats on going online.

[Ampster]

8kW seems large to me. ........

8 kW seems small to me. I have a 10 kW system in Sonoma California. I guess it all depends on where you are standing.

[solarix]

We do 11.5kW systems quite often here in APS territory (Arizona Public Service). Because of the time-of-use rate plan solar people are now forced into, we have to compensate by way overproducing. In order to con everyone into agreeing to end net metering, APS pays a fairly generous 10.4c/kWh for energy sold to the grid - but, they also slipped in a change to the peak rates. Peak time of use is now after 3pm instead of noon, and the peak rate is now 24.5cents (plus fees plus taxes). We have to give the grid about three kWh for every one kWh used in the late afternoons on weekdays (you know - A/C time). Solar is so affordable though that we can still achieve seven year paybacks and solar installation in Arizona is going better than ever. The new APS CEO has even committed the utility to achieving 100% renewable generation by 2050 (well, they count nuclear as renewable...)
By installing about 1/3 of a solar array facing west and the rest facing south, we can go as high as ~11.5kW on a single 7.7kW inverter and stay under the 20% backfeed rule. There are a few hours of the year the inverter may throttle back, but it is very cost effective to not add a second inverter and to not modify a 200A service....

[rbridges]

By installing about 1/3 of a solar array facing west and the rest facing south, we can go as high as ~11.5kW on a single 7.7kW inverter and stay under the 20% backfeed rule. There are a few hours of the year the inverter may throttle back, but it is very cost effective to not add a second inverter and to not modify a 200A service....

That's interesting. I'm in a similar situation with the inverter.