Power company wants ME to pay to upgrade THEIR transformer!

[SunEagle]

This is an old post, but I just want to say that it’s pretty pathetic that utilities are making homeowners pay for their own infrastructure when in reality, homeowners find it cheaper to put solar on their home than the rates utilities are gouging their customers.
Utilities get to raise their rates every year, if they have net metering, they often reduce their buy back rate with the defense that solar costs them more money. Here’s the truth, Solar saves utilities money, the customer covers the cost, so with enough aggregated, it’s essentially a free generator developed for the utility. All they have to do is invest in grid scale Energy Storage, and there are plenty of options out there.
The utility should be buying power from every system at the same price they sell kWh, and before you say, “then the utility wouldn’t make any money,” utilities are a not a for profit corporation, they are a necessity, not something that should be profiting off of people who can hardly afford their rates.
The fact is, most utilities in America give massive bonuses and salary increases to their chief officers every year, they increase their shareholder returns, all while sucking the money out of the consumer like a mosquito.
They whine and cry that solar is costing them when it’s a free ride. Many utilities are also trying to add a “solar tax” for anyone that goes solar (and often even their neighbors that don’t). So how do they keep getting away with it? They buy regulators and corporate commissioners via campaign donations. All this right out in the open.
Utilities are an absolute failure of our system, just look at PG&E, their colosal mess is so common in utility industry.
We should have solar on every house in America, instead the monopolies we’ve put in charge of the grid (even the Texas grid regulators) try to stop it and keep it at the status quo.

Homeowners should not have to pay for grid infrastructure to save on their electrical bill, something is obviously wrong here.

Actually all POCO's are a profit centers and require investors to keep them afloat. If they do not produce the profits that are expected then their investors go somewhere else. It is the local government that cause the rates to go up. So maybe get mad at them first and then the profit centers.

I feel bad for the people that live in high energy cost states because they are getting raked over the coals by the POCO's. But try to remember that everyone that the POCO provides power to can't install solar and grid sized batteries cost a lot which lowers the profit of the company that purchases them. So they have to get their money somewhere.

While I may live in a state that has very low electric costs and requires me to pay on average $225 a month I really wish the insurance (medical and home) would lower their costs because I am paying well over $800 per month for them and that is a bigger expense for me then electricity.

[Ramia]

This is an old post, but I just want to say that it’s pretty pathetic that utilities are making homeowners pay for their own infrastructure when in reality, homeowners find it cheaper to put solar on their home than the rates utilities are gouging their customers.
Utilities get to raise their rates every year, if they have net metering, they often reduce their buy back rate with the defense that solar costs them more money. Here’s the truth, Solar saves utilities money, the customer covers the cost, so with enough aggregated, it’s essentially a free generator developed for the utility. All they have to do is invest in grid scale Energy Storage, and there are plenty of options out there.
The utility should be buying power from every system at the same price they sell kWh, and before you say, “then the utility wouldn’t make any money,” utilities are a not a for profit corporation, they are a necessity, not something that should be profiting off of people who can hardly afford their rates.
The fact is, most utilities in America give massive bonuses and salary increases to their chief officers every year, they increase their shareholder returns, all while sucking the money out of the consumer like a mosquito.
They whine and cry that solar is costing them when it’s a free ride. Many utilities are also trying to add a “solar tax” for anyone that goes solar (and often even their neighbors that don’t). So how do they keep getting away with it? They buy regulators and corporate commissioners via campaign donations. All this right out in the open.
Utilities are an absolute failure of our system, just look at PG&E, their colosal mess is so common in utility industry.
We should have solar on every house in America, instead the monopolies we’ve put in charge of the grid (even the Texas grid regulators) try to stop it and keep it at the status quo.

Homeowners should not have to pay for grid infrastructure to save on their electrical bill, something is obviously wrong here.

[bcroe]

My plan is to put in a geothermal heat pump system that would be all electric and only have some propane fossil fuel for a kitchen range and standby generator. With the solar having enough capacity, my electric bill should be small and future battery tech would reduce propane use for the generator.

That is what is happening here, all electric with heat pumps taking care of heat and
oh yes, some AC. But the only way that can work is with net metering, with most of
my solar energy being collected in summer, and most of my energy use in winter.
Bruce Roe

[peakbagger]

South of Hanover you are talking big bucks unless you get way off of I89. High speed internet is spotty but available all over the state but you definitely need to check.

[Lynx]

There are two large utilities in NH, NH Electric Coop is solar friendly, Eversource is not and will follow the law but not a step further. I would find out which utility for the property you are buying, if its the Coop give them a call and expect they can give you a reading if they are anywhere near their cap. You can try the same with Eversource but be prepared for a possible run around. NH set low number for renewable penetration from the beginning. I think it was 1% then they doubled it but I am not sure if there were strings attached. I think the Coop has a battery incentive program

I hope you are on the southern end of the state are geothermal boreholes through granite are not cheap

thanks. I was thinking one (or 2) of the newer battery ready inverters. I want an initial 10k system but ability to expand.

the plan is property with a field, likely south of Hanover (it has to have high speed internet too).,

[peakbagger]

Any idea what the upgrade policy is in NH?

On a related topic... I plan to move to NH next summer. I want to put in a solar array to supply most of my electricity.
The problem is, how do I know I can put in the solar prior to buying the property? If I can’t put in solar, then I can’t buy the property.

My plan is to put in a geothermal heat pump system that would be all electric and only have some propane fossil fuel for a kitchen range and standby generator. With the solar having enough capacity, my electric bill should be small and future battery tech would reduce propane use for the generator.

So, I think there needs to be a way to request permission for interconnect as a condition of purchase. Maybe realtors need to pressure the states for a process to do this.

thoughts?

There are two large utilities in NH, NH Electric Coop is solar friendly, Eversource is not and will follow the law but not a step further. I would find out which utility for the property you are buying, if its the Coop give them a call and expect they can give you a reading if they are anywhere near their cap. You can try the same with Eversource but be prepared for a possible run around. NH set low number for renewable penetration from the beginning. I think it was 1% then they doubled it but I am not sure if there were strings attached. I think the Coop has a battery incentive program

I hope you are on the southern end of the state are geothermal boreholes through granite are not cheap

[DanS26]

I have a suggestion for the OP. Have a meeting with all the neighbors on this potentially overloaded transformer. Ask them if anyone is experiencing dimming lights and other voltage related problems (ie burned out motors, reduced life of AC compressors, etc.). Dimming lights is a real annoyance and most people will at least entertain a proposal to mitigate.

If any of these issues exist now, make a suggestion that they all chip in to upgrade the transformer. If that doesn't go over you are no worse off than now.

[bob-n]

So far, NH has low penetration rate. I've not heard of a NH customer under 10kW given hassle. Even above 10kW, they seem to allow it for residential, with just the extra paperwork and fee.

If you find a property that interests you, immediately contact the power company and ask for their approval. There's a standard form on the web for submission. They will want a rough design so they know how many watts. Approval typically comes through in 2 weeks. Then you have many months to build. Again, details are on the web.

[Lynx]

Any idea what the upgrade policy is in NH?

On a related topic... I plan to move to NH next summer. I want to put in a solar array to supply most of my electricity.
The problem is, how do I know I can put in the solar prior to buying the property? If I can’t put in solar, then I can’t buy the property.

My plan is to put in a geothermal heat pump system that would be all electric and only have some propane fossil fuel for a kitchen range and standby generator. With the solar having enough capacity, my electric bill should be small and future battery tech would reduce propane use for the generator.

So, I think there needs to be a way to request permission for interconnect as a condition of purchase. Maybe realtors need to pressure the states for a process to do this.

thoughts?

[reader2580]

So, just me then, and not the other solar neighbors using it? No. Re-read the OP.

What if the situation was opposite and you were one of the first two customers who put in solar? I bet you wouldn't be too happy if the power company came back to you later and said a third customer wants solar so now we want you to pay 1/3 of the cost of a larger transformer.

[Salts]

That's why utilities are regulated monopolies. My utility Xcel does upgrade transformers at their expense if the current one is unable to meet demand. I have friends a few counties over serviced by Otero Electric. Their 10kVA XFMR can no longer keep up now that they have an EV. Once Otero realized their peak demand was ~17kW they put in an order for a ~20kVA XFMR at no cost to the homeowner.

Your utility will also upgrade the transformer, at no cost to you, to meet demand. But that's not what you're complaining about. You want them to upgrade the transformer to meet your generation.. Demand and generation are two different directions. Demand = power going into your home.. Generation = power going out.

I don't think you're understanding these basic concepts. The POCO makes money when demand goes up.. they lose money when generation goes up. This isn't rocket science.

[SunEagle]

I agree, but I think the transformer was undersized, that could be demonstrated by
looking the customers total potential load. Solar is virtually always just a fraction of
the service rating, so solar should not add up to a problem.

I have wondered just how much the idle current used by PoCo transformers is, it has
been pretty significant in energy vampire loads around the house. Yea a bigger trans
will mean more standby current, both real and the power factor needing more caps. I
would expect a swap of one used trans for another used trans, more labor and idle
power than other factors.

I suppose the PoCo has long been unhappy with this neighborhood, putting in
transformers adequate for all electric heat, etc, then customers going to propane
to save money. Then guys like me managed to get under 5000KWH a year. But
now it is working well with the big solar, I am peak (AC) leveling on this street,
and giving up surplus KWH as big as I used before. Bruce Roe

You are correct. The "core" losses in a low efficient transformer are huge over a period of time.

While the DOE has now set up a much higher efficiency requirement for new transformers (DOE 2016) that standard (like the NEC) may not apply to POCO's.

[nwdiver]

Lets change perspective. Pretend you're the power company. Would you want to spend money to benefit a customer when it won't benefit you? Name one company that would ever voluntarily do such a thing?

I understand your frustration, but the POCO isn't going to spend money just to benefit you. The "other" solar customers must be humming along just fine, and since you're the one who's late to the game, then you're the one who is limited on that transformer. I get that it sucks, but the POCO isn't going to spend their money unless they get some benefit from it, and their only benefit in most cases is selling you power, not taking it from you.

Now, there is one exception. In some states, the POCO net metering laws allow them to buy the energy at wholesale rates and sell it back at retail rates. In such cases, upgrading the local transformer would seem like a good idea since they can buy it from you at 4 cents and sell it back at something greater than 4 cents.. (or whatever your rates are). But even in this situation, there has to be enough energy exchange to pay for the equipment that needs upgrading.. and that's probably not the case for someone with just a few extra kilowatts available.

That's why utilities are regulated monopolies. My utility Xcel does upgrade transformers at their expense if the current one is unable to meet demand. I have friends a few counties over serviced by Otero Electric. Their 10kVA XFMR can no longer keep up now that they have an EV. Once Otero realized their peak demand was ~17kW they put in an order for a ~20kVA XFMR at no cost to the homeowner.

[Salts]

So, just me then, and not the other solar neighbors using it? No. Re-read the OP.

Lets change perspective. Pretend you're the power company. Would you want to spend money to benefit a customer when it won't benefit you? Name one company that would ever voluntarily do such a thing?

I understand your frustration, but the POCO isn't going to spend money just to benefit you. The "other" solar customers must be humming along just fine, and since you're the one who's late to the game, then you're the one who is limited on that transformer. I get that it sucks, but the POCO isn't going to spend their money unless they get some benefit from it, and their only benefit in most cases is selling you power, not taking it from you.

Now, there is one exception. In some states, the POCO net metering laws allow them to buy the energy at wholesale rates and sell it back at retail rates. In such cases, upgrading the local transformer would seem like a good idea since they can buy it from you at 4 cents and sell it back at something greater than 4 cents.. (or whatever your rates are). But even in this situation, there has to be enough energy exchange to pay for the equipment that needs upgrading.. and that's probably not the case for someone with just a few extra kilowatts available.

[bcroe]

Trust me when I say the money the POCO makes from your power is a drop in the
bucket. It would take years of your generation to pay for the transformer let alone
the labor to install it.

I agree, but I think the transformer was undersized, that could be demonstrated by
looking the customers total potential load. Solar is virtually always just a fraction of
the service rating, so solar should not add up to a problem.

I have wondered just how much the idle current used by PoCo transformers is, it has
been pretty significant in energy vampire loads around the house. Yea a bigger trans
will mean more standby current, both real and the power factor needing more caps. I
would expect a swap of one used trans for another used trans, more labor and idle
power than other factors.

I suppose the PoCo has long been unhappy with this neighborhood, putting in
transformers adequate for all electric heat, etc, then customers going to propane
to save money. Then guys like me managed to get under 5000KWH a year. But
now it is working well with the big solar, I am peak (AC) leveling on this street,
and giving up surplus KWH as big as I used before. Bruce Roe