What is considered to be a good $/watt OTD (with all taxes/fees minus the rebate)?

[PugPower]

One thing Panasonic has over other manufacturers is that they have been in the solar panel business much longer than their competitors. But I don't think I would pay more for Panasonic over another premium name panel with similar specifications. I find the differences in published specifications: co-efficients, efficiency, degradation, etc. between similar premium panels by different manufacturers to be very small if not negligible.

The ratings published by manufacturers for solar panels are like MPG's published by car manufacturers. They are under ideal conditions in a laboratory. In the real world you never achieve 100% ideal conditions. I wish I could find it, but a while back I ran across a website of a installer who put many different manufacturers panels on his roof under the same conditions to compare their performance against one another. It turns out real world numbers were quite different then those advertised.

[bcroe]

What would be far more useful, IMHO, would be an objective performance comparison
of how well panels capture light in sub-optimal insolation conditions. Given clouds, haze, smoke, soiling, and off
angle illumination that predominate roof mounted residential solar solutions, what would be valuable to know is
which panels can capture more light during the 95% of the time that the sun is not directly perpendicular to the
panel surface. Similarly, most people don't full appreciate the impact the thermal coefficient has, particularly in
warmer climates.

So if even 10% of them fail over 30 years -- who cares.

Unless you have a string array . . . . (ha ha, sorry, just couldn't help myself).

Huh, If 5 strings age over a decade or 2, it is a simple matter to add a 6th string to bring the
system back to max while continuing to use the original investment. This will not work with
micro inverters, you either replace all panels, or add panels with more associated micros
and the associated AC wiring (which may not fit into the existing box).

Generic panels run in the area of 20% conversion efficiency, and that DOES NOT improve
with lower light levels, they quit all together before you drop to moonlight. Receiving light
at an angle means less intensity, and the preservation of energy will decrease the energy
the panel can deliver. While claims of panels working better under clouds keep being
heard, they are NEVER backed by any hard numbers. I will continue to believe any slight
ripple in the efficiency vs intensity curve, is lost in the noise for renewables. However I
have been able to achieve a 100% increase in energy my inverters get under clouds, the
old fashioned way. Double the number of panels connected to the inverters. Bruce Roe

[JSchnee21]

(-: While I agree that such claims, warranties, and guarantees are generally worth less than the paper they are written on, these things did seem important to me as well when I was planning my system. The reality is that in the absence of actual data / knowledge such things seem important at the time -- especially when trying to research/plan a major monetary investment like solar.

The reality is that most panels last "forever." Home ownership and many marriages don't last nearly that long. And given the rapid shutdown requirements, and the 90% market share of SE and Enphase in the US, there is no longer any need to worry about panel/string matching. If one of your panels fails just replace it with something else in the future for a few hundred dollars (assuming vendors stop changing the panel sizes all the time -- LG looking at you).

What would be far more useful, IMHO, would be an objective performance comparison of how well panels capture light in sub-optimal insolation conditions. Given clouds, haze, smoke, soiling, and off angle illumination that predominate roof mounted residential solar solutions, what would be valuable to know is which panels can capture more light during the 95% of the time that the sun is not directly perpendicular to the panel surface. Similarly, most people don't full appreciate the impact the thermal coefficient has, particularly in warmer climates.

That said, if you do a little digging in the European and Asian literature, you will see that Sanyo/Panasonic (recall they changed their name some 8-9 yrs ago) is one of the few, if only vendor (other than perhaps SunPower) to have a large number of residential systems installed and producing for more than 10+ yrs. Sanyo/Panasonic's data on panel reliability (granted self reported) and LID is outstanding and stands in stark contrast to others with little or no data (or who choose not to share it).

If you really want to know, you'll need to subscribe to the Fraunhofer Institute for Solar Energy Systems testing reports. But let's remember, individual panels are only $0.75 to $1.25 per Watt (so like $250-350 each). So if even 10% of them fail over 30 years -- who cares.

Unless you have a string array . . . . (ha ha, sorry, just couldn't help myself).

[SunEagle]

I really have doubts that the decrease over 25 years is much more than a guess, the
brand differences may be just advertising hype. What I would expect is that the
highest output panels would degrade more, let me know in 25 years if that is wrong.
Bruce Roe

I guess I am too old to worry about that 25 year warranty any more but it may be a significant motivator for the younger crowd.

[bcroe]

I really have doubts that the decrease over 25 years is much more than a guess, the
brand differences may be just advertising hype. What I would expect is that the
highest output panels would degrade more, let me know in 25 years if that is wrong.
Bruce Roe

[PugPower]

"the thing that makes premium Panasonic ones worth it is that after 25 years they will produce 90%, while most other brands will do 80%"
The LG Neon 2 panels advertise they will produce 90.08% after 25 years. https://es-media-prod.s3.amazonaws.c...N1C-V5_AUS.pdf

"Also I wanted Enphase system as I want to see how much each panel is producing"
SolarEdge systems with power optimizes provide individual panel monitoring at no addl. charge. https://www.solaredge.com/products/pv-monitoring#/

"Also the prime space on my roof is kinda limited, so I need high producing panels to maximize watts per sq foot."
LG has panels rated at over 400W with 20%+ efficiency. https://www.lg.com/us/business/solar-panels

[Duxa]

People have said on here and some installers have told me that it’s not really worth paying for the premium brand names.

im preparing for my diy system and planning to use something like peimar or the cheapest tier 1 panel I can buy at the time.

using those panels with ground mount and sma string inverter I will spend about $1.15 per watt for diy. That includes all bos and freight but not any electrical upgrades since the house is new. I’ll only need to buy the wire and conduit for the array to the house about 100’ away.

keep us posted on your decisions and install as I’m very interested.

the thing that makes premium Panasonic ones worth it is that after 25 years they will produce 90%, while most other brands will do 80%. Also I wanted Enphase system as I want to see how much each panel is producing. I am building out to outperform my consumption by 1Kw. With kids growing up who knows how consumption will increase in 5-10 years. And adding more later is a huge pain with permitting, so I rather do it all now. Plus producing as close to 6.6Kw as I can (I’ll be producing 5kw) allows me to do a level 2 (30 amp 240v) charge of EV purely off of solar.

Also the prime space on my roof is kinda limited, so I need high producing panels to maximize watts per sq foot.

I dunno, overall I feel like if I’m going to be dropping 10 grand on a 25 year project, I might as well pay a little more and get the better stuff. I know I’ll feel good about it 10 years down the road. But of course there is something to be said about saving money and breaking even faster.

[df0rster]

People have said on here and some installers have told me that it’s not really worth paying for the premium brand names.

im preparing for my diy system and planning to use something like peimar or the cheapest tier 1 panel I can buy at the time.

using those panels with ground mount and sma string inverter I will spend about $1.15 per watt for diy. That includes all bos and freight but not any electrical upgrades since the house is new. I’ll only need to buy the wire and conduit for the array to the house about 100’ away.

keep us posted on your decisions and install as I’m very interested.

[Ampster]

......Based on my calculations with doing it myself I am ending up in around ~$1.70 per watt ....., and that includes panel upgrade ($2400, current panel is 100AMP Zinsco, upgrade to 200Amp SquareD). They have microinverters built into them. Someone else doing it for ~$1 makes it sound like I am paying way too much though :/

That sounds like a good plan. You won't regret getting rid of that Zinsco panel either. As you may already know they are a fire hazard.

There will always be outliers that might make you think you are paying to much but that panel upgrade is $0.48 per Watt so your Net is about $1.22 per Watt. The small Tesla 3.8kW system is $2.02 per Watt. I think they get less expensive the larger they get. You will also have the satisfaction of doing it yourself.

[Duxa]

It came to ~$2.35/W

You can use google to search for "DIY CA 8.68KW foo1bar" to find my thread about my install. (search built into this website apparently doesn't go back that far or something.)


Since you're doing Enphase, make sure you're looking at cost for the enphase cabling.
I looked at Enphase and Solaredge and went with Solaredge, part because of cost, part because I wanted less electronics on the roof.

Yeah the Enphase trunk cables are $300 to cover 15 panels. Not cheap, but I already got those accounted for.

[foo1bar]

How much did your come out to be?

It came to ~$2.35/W

You can use google to search for "DIY CA 8.68KW foo1bar" to find my thread about my install. (search built into this website apparently doesn't go back that far or something.)

Based on my calculations with doing it myself Iam ending up in around ~$1.70 per watt

Since you're doing Enphase, make sure you're looking at cost for the enphase cabling.
I looked at Enphase and Solaredge and went with Solaredge, part because of cost, part because I wanted less electronics on the roof.

[Duxa]

I checked one vendor and Panasonic 330s are at ~$1.08/W. They also have Hyundai 290s at $.68/W (and Talesun 270's at $.36/W)
If you have room to do 18 of Hyundai 290s - at $.68/W you'd have 5% more watts for less money ($3564 vs. $5340.)
I didn't include the extra 3 enphase inverters and extra racking - but that won't be $1800.

But maybe you found a really good deal on Panasonic 330s in which case my point is moot. I only checked one vendor (renvu - the one I used for most of my stuff when I did my DIY install)

FWIW, I think $2.75/W to $3/W (pre-rebates) would be a good price for someone else installing - but I think it really depends on how competitive the installers are around you and a lot of other factors - like do they need to do a new panel, etc.
The cheapest DIY I've seen reported here I think was ~$1/W, but IIRC they had a very straightforward install and could use a string inverter (cheaper than Enphase or Solaredge)
Mine was higher - but I replaced the main panel.

How much did your come out to be? Based on my calculations with doing it myself Iam ending up in around ~$1.70 per watt (These are the panels - https://es-media-prod.s3.amazonaws.c...icACmodule.pdf), and that includes panel upgrade ($2400, current panel is 100AMP Zinsco, upgrade to 200Amp SquareD). They have microinverters built into them. Someone else doing it for ~$1 makes it sound like I am paying way too much though :/

[foo1bar]

I am in Southern California. And I am looking at Panasonic + Enphase system 330x15 panels (so 4.95Kwh). My roof is composite shingle and azimuth is 220 (so South-Westish). Looking at DIY install, and wondering what a good price would be per watt after all is set and done.

I checked one vendor and Panasonic 330s are at ~$1.08/W. They also have Hyundai 290s at $.68/W (and Talesun 270's at $.36/W)
If you have room to do 18 of Hyundai 290s - at $.68/W you'd have 5% more watts for less money ($3564 vs. $5340.)
I didn't include the extra 3 enphase inverters and extra racking - but that won't be $1800.

But maybe you found a really good deal on Panasonic 330s in which case my point is moot. I only checked one vendor (renvu - the one I used for most of my stuff when I did my DIY install)

FWIW, I think $2.75/W to $3/W (pre-rebates) would be a good price for someone else installing - but I think it really depends on how competitive the installers are around you and a lot of other factors - like do they need to do a new panel, etc.
The cheapest DIY I've seen reported here I think was ~$1/W, but IIRC they had a very straightforward install and could use a string inverter (cheaper than Enphase or Solaredge)
Mine was higher - but I replaced the main panel.

[peakbagger]

To get an idea on state and local incentives the DSIRE site is a good place to start. The thing to understand about solar is unless the local utility is solar friendly (or is forced by state law to at follow reasonable rules) there is chance that solar may not be good fit for your house. Not much you can do except move. If you need a good primer pick up a copy of Solar Power Your Home for Dummies. Between the DSIRE database, the book and the PV Watts you can figure out a lot of system details and then come back to us with more details which allows us to improve the discussion. Do the research first then decide if you want to pull the trigger.

[Duxa]

Welcome!

You can google EnergySage for more regionalized details and even vendor bids. But in general, for a standard residential grid tie system, with roof mounted panels, using a Solar Edge or Enphase solution, from a reputable, local installer. You're looking at anywhere from $2.50 - $3.25 per Watt DC for a complete turnkey solution. This is to purchase outright (cash or loan -- never lease or sign a PPA) before any tax deductions or incentives.

Price per watt of course depends on region of the country/market conditions, panel selection (mid range versus high efficiency), and the size of the system (larger systems (>7.6kW) usually have lower cost per watt). Ground mount is more than roof mount. The exact roof arrangement (unless it is metal, slate, or tile) doesn't have a huge impact.

Most jurisdictions require rapid shutdown of some ilk or another (e.g. NEC 2014 vs 2017, vs. specific AHJ requirements), and Solar Edge and Enphase command ~90% of US market share in this regard.

2019 was really hot as it was the last year to get the full 30% Federal rebate. Now should be a good time to haggle/negotiate as 2020 demand (except California) will be softer. You're probably looking at ~$2.65-$2.85/W unless you go with a really high end panel (Panasonic, LG Neon R, SunPower) or have a very small (<5kW system). So a 10kW system, for example, will be ~$26-28K.

What state do you live in? How many MWh do you use per year? Do you have a perspective yet as to how large of a system you want? Any specific aesthetic requirements (costs more). How much roof area do you have and which way(s) does it face?

I live in NJ, have a 12.2kW Solar Edge / Panasonic system, which offset 91% of my usage in 2019 (I made 12.34 MWh and consumed 13.53MWh). My system was ~$3.28/W (in 2017) as I recall. Given Federal incentives, savings on consumption, and NJ market specific SREC's, I expect to break even in 7-8 years (from installation - June 2017).

I am in Southern California. And I am looking at Panasonic + Enphase system 330x15 panels (so 4.95Kwh). My roof is composite shingle and azimuth is 220 (so South-Westish). Looking at DIY install, and wondering what a good price would be per watt after all is set and done.