is my project economically viable ?

[jflorey2]

Agreed, but that doesn't make the problem go away or the deception any more ethical.

?? So you would think it was deception if a seller talked up the pool? I disagree. They are sellers; of course they are going to talk up the pool (or the granite countertops, or the solar installation, or the new insulation.) As long as they are honest about the facts behind it, then they're going to try to sell their house. I have done the same thing; I am sure you do too.

[RShackleford]

You appear headed in the right direction but, IMO, you need background material and knowledge

Good luck.

Well, I decided to just go ahead and pull the trigger. I'll do the installation as inexpensively (hopefully not cheaply) as possible, with lots of sweat equity, and good deals like the $0.36/kW Talesun panels.

I can always employ the chainsaw, if I don't like the results.

[J.P.M.]

?? So you would think it was deception if a seller talked up the pool? I disagree. They are sellers; of course they are going to talk up the pool (or the granite countertops, or the solar installation, or the new insulation.) As long as they are honest about the facts behind it, then they're going to try to sell their house. I have done the same thing; I am sure you do too.

All this is off topic, but since you ask and since IMO, you're one of the more informed and critical thinkers around here:

I'm referring to the idea or proposition that potential buyers wind up getting screwed by their own ignorance at least as much or more than by sellers/peddlers deceptively taking advantage of that ignorance. That is, most of the origin of the screwing starts with buyer ignorance.

A well informed buyer is hard(er) to screw.

Example: How many folks who bought a residence at least partly on the on the premise of no electric bills and then discover at closing that they will still probably get a bill from high, profligate, self inflicted and ignorant usage, but also are committed to something like 15 years remaining on a lease for a system that doesn't cover their entire bill as they, in their largely self inflicted ignorance, were led to believe.

Or, the PV system is oversized for their usage and so they were sucked into perhaps paying more than they would if the system were sized for their needs sort of like buying a home with a grossly oversized A/C unit and told it's a money saver because it won't run as long and so save electricity/$$ while keeping the house cooler. As I'm pretty sure you know, both of those statements sound logical, but are false and in my book are deceptive. Compounding the ignorance, the person making such statements may actually believe them.

Buyer ignorance, to the degree it exists is still the culprit in most scenarios. The seller, or seller's agent is no more than an opportunistic tool used to turn the buyer's ignorance against that buyer with the goal of separating the buyer from more of their assets than would occur if the buyer was more informed. Is the real estate slug a scum bag ? Sure. But also not much more than an opportunist taking advantage of buyer ignorance and emotions.

I was a commission sales rep for ~ 10 yrs. peddling industrial process equipment of the type I later engineered before switching to engineering (and taking a pretty substantial pay cut, BTW, in the process). If I didn't sell anything, I didn't get paid. I appreciate the ethical dilemmas when dealing with customers who can be obvious and easy marks based on their ignorance. Sometimes it was hard not to take buyers to the cleaners. Most everyone I know who has ever sold things for a living understands that. In some ways, it's one of the hardest parts of the job.

Of course I talked up the advantages of my product(s). As long as I'm honest about the facts behind my products, I might be successful.

But to say, or imply as you seem to be doing that honestly always leads to a sale is, and I mean this to you respectfully, naïve.

As for honesty, truthful disclosure and personal integrity, the reality is most of that is a moving target subject to interpretation with a lot of the need for the any honest interpretation and self evaluation stemming from what I believe is a deeper need in most folks or at least most peddlers anyway, to be able to get out of bed in the morning, look in the mirror and like what they see. Sometimes, more often than I at least was comfortable with, it came down to a matter of situational ethics and interpretation. IMO, depending on their moral compass, honest peddlers deal with that most every day. To the degree they do may say something about how easy it is to B.S. people who are often so uninformed and eager to part with their assets it seems like they have targets painted on their faces.

Look, the best defense against getting screwed is for the buyer to take responsibility for being informed, not relying on the honesty of whoever is on the other side of the table. I don't like it much but that's how I saw and still see the game being run.

To repeat, it's hard(er) to screw a well informed person. And the more informed they are, the harder it is.

As for your surmise about what I've done and will do if/when I sell a residence, I've always been straight w/buyers (or sellers for that matter), and made sure residences I've owned and sold were, IMO, in good repair, or I know it'll cost me when I disclose defects that I couldn't or chose not to correct. My choice, my penalty. Potential buyers' opinions about my honesty in a business dealing such as that may be different from mine and relative. I intend to do the same when I sell this residence. Example: I will, among other documentation, provide hard copies of electric bills that prove $120/yr. I also intend to disclose that a good portion of that low annual bill is due to the fact that in spite of the array on my roof and the solar thermal water heater next to it, I only use ~ half what the average residence uses. My guess is folks will ignore that and see the 10 bucks/month for their potential bill and not hear, much less understand that unless they can keep their usage below ~ 9,000 kWh/yr., the PV system on the roof will likely not offset 100 % of their future bills if they buy my home.

Hell, if they're as informed as more than a few posters around here and also most of my neighbors and friends, they won't even have a clue what a kWh is much less what their usage is. So much for being informed.

Now, when they get surprised and all pissed off and feeling screwed when they see bills that will probably be >> $10/month, who's to blame ? Me ? Them ? Their ignorance ? When/Where does my responsibility to inform them stop ? Where does their responsibility to be informed start ? It seems pretty relative to me.

So, to your question, do I think it's deception ? For one thing, and for me only, until I verify for myself the veracity of what I'm being told, Yup. Sure do. But that's just me. But while I believe there's enough blame to go around, I honestly believe the deception starts with self deception. If I get screwed by my own ignorance that comes about due to a lack of due diligence to be informed, shame on me. If I don't take time and make the effort to be informed, that's my bad, no someone else's.

I'd also be kind of stupid to believe or assume someone with skin in the game that I probably don't know will be honest with me if there is $$ involved.

Respectfully,

[jflorey2]

But to say, or imply as you seem to be doing that honestly always leads to a sale is, and I mean this to you respectfully, naïve.

I don't think that at all. Being honest is, at best, neutral - and at worst, leads to the loss of the sale to someone who is less honest and promises more.

But my responsibility as a seller (of anything, not just houses) is to be honest about the details. When I sold our last house, I told the buyers that the solar power system I had generated about 16kwhr a day. I also told them we had recently replaced both bathrooms, had re-insulated the attic and replaced the kitchen floor.

Now, the buyer might hear that and think "wow, that means I can run an A/C all the time and never pay a power bill ever again!" Or they might think "new insulation! Heck, I won't have to run the A/C at all!" That's his fault, not mine. All I can do is give him the facts. As you mention, it is his responsibility to educate himself, so he does not make foolish assumptions. But if he does not, that's on him - not me.

Now, when they get surprised and all pissed off and feeling screwed when they see bills that will probably be >> $10/month, who's to blame ? Me ? Them ? Their ignorance ? When/Where does my responsibility to inform them stop ? Where does their responsibility to be informed start ? It seems pretty relative to me.

It seems . . . . less relative to me. If you are honest with them and they get all pissed off, it's on them. If I tell them how much the system generates and they don't understand the units - AND they don't ask - that's also on them. If I lie to them, it's on me. All I can do is be honest about what I am selling. I cannot educate an arbitrarily foolish person, nor would I try unless they ask me to.

I'd also be kind of stupid to believe or assume someone with skin in the game that I probably don't know will be honest with me if there is $$ involved.

I go in assuming they are going to be honest. Then I verify the more important items (i.e. with a good inspection, a title search etc.) If it turns out they weren't honest - I walk away, even if it's a great deal otherwise. I'd expect other people to do the same with me.

[J.P.M.]

I don't think that at all. Being honest is, at best, neutral - and at worst, leads to the loss of the sale to someone who is less honest and promises more.

But my responsibility as a seller (of anything, not just houses) is to be honest about the details. When I sold our last house, I told the buyers that the solar power system I had generated about 16kwhr a day. I also told them we had recently replaced both bathrooms, had re-insulated the attic and replaced the kitchen floor.

Now, the buyer might hear that and think "wow, that means I can run an A/C all the time and never pay a power bill ever again!" Or they might think "new insulation! Heck, I won't have to run the A/C at all!" That's his fault, not mine. All I can do is give him the facts. As you mention, it is his responsibility to educate himself, so he does not make foolish assumptions. But if he does not, that's on him - not me.

It seems . . . . less relative to me. If you are honest with them and they get all pissed off, it's on them. If I tell them how much the system generates and they don't understand the units - AND they don't ask - that's also on them. If I lie to them, it's on me. All I can do is be honest about what I am selling. I cannot educate an arbitrarily foolish person, nor would I try unless they ask me to.

I go in assuming they are going to be honest. Then I verify the more important items (i.e. with a good inspection, a title search etc.) If it turns out they weren't honest - I walk away, even if it's a great deal otherwise. I'd expect other people to do the same with me.

Understood. Thank you.

I see the difference as you trusting more than me, but verify and then act accordingly. Being basically cynical about human nature, I trust less than you (and probably less than most) but look for reasons to correct my opinion and act accordingly. So looks to me like we start from different sides but work toward the same goal.

The last word is yours.