Earth4Energy, Citizenre, and other Misleading Solar Energy Scam Info

[russ]

My mother always told me before she died that you'll catch more flies with honey than you ever will with vinegar.

A boss of mine years back used to say that when I was reaming someone a new one - he was also one of the meanest SOBs I ever knew - smart and good though.

[john p]

Briteleaf no one is trying to stop you doing anything. All we are trying to do is explain in simple english,so that not only you but others that may read the same thread that its not economical to do some things your self. Sometime its hard to say some things in a nice sugar coated way.
And sometimes Sunking gets a bit grumpy.. but hey he never claimed to be "mr nice guy" he like most of us giving advice also have jobs and businesses to run, and have some time for other things.We just cant sit on here thinking for hours how to put everything so its 100% politically correct and will be accepted perfectly by the person asking the questions. IF the people asking the questions want to send $100 a question. Im sure we can reply and do good research before putting the reply in print..
Now if you want to go spend your money on making the panels ,the inverter,the charger go for it. Its your money and time.

[BriteLeaf]

No a 4 to 5 Kw system would only cover about 20 to 25% of your usage.

Since TX has no NET METERING LAWS, the POCO is not obligated to pay you full retail price for excess you generate. When that is taken into account, a 4 to 5 Kw system will not lower you bill much at all, just a $600/month loan payment for the next 10 years plus your $200/month electric bill.

All in all you should be one happy camper. You only pay less than $0.08/Kwh. That is one of the cheapest rates in the WORLD. It also means you have no business even thinking about Solar, it would be crazy to even consider it.


So count your blessing you live in a conservative state with dirt cheap electric rates. That is why TX is not suffering through the recession like most other states and our economy is healthy.

Has anyone ever told you that you have a baseball bat vocabulary, when a feather would do the trick?

I understand that you have 30 years as an EE, and that is great. You know your ****. But have you NEVER done anything just to see IF you could do it? I will most likely not build anymore than 4x126 Watt panels, but it really is very hard to hear (or see) someone telling you how stupid you are, when all you are trying to do is try something different.

It seems like every time I come back to this particular forum, someone is putting another person "in their place" because they have an idea and they are trying to get a bit of help. Constructive criticism is fine, but don't dog people and make them feel like an inferior piece of lint because they are trying new ideas. Even if they are grasping at straws.

I am sorry if I have offended any of the mods, and I hope I don't get banned for this post, but damn! Try a little encouragement sometimes!

My mother always told me before she died that you'll catch more flies with honey than you ever will with vinegar.

[Sunking]

That would (supposedly) not take me off the grid, but cover most of my electric bill, and if I have a surplus the Power Company would buy it back at about a nickle per Kwh.

No a 4 to 5 Kw system would only cover about 20 to 25% of your usage.

Since TX has no NET METERING LAWS, the POCO is not obligated to pay you full retail price for excess you generate. When that is taken into account, a 4 to 5 Kw system will not lower you bill much at all, just a $600/month loan payment for the next 10 years plus your $200/month electric bill.

All in all you should be one happy camper. You only pay less than $0.08/Kwh. That is one of the cheapest rates in the WORLD. It also means you have no business even thinking about Solar, it would be crazy to even consider it.

As for the folks in Pennsylvania, that is there problem and is what is wrong with our political system of liberal governments. Think about it. The government there forces the electric companies pay residential customers $0.47/Kwh, and sell the same electricity to their neighbors for $0.17/Kwh or at a 66% loss. How long would you be in business doing that? Don't go feeling sorry for the electric company though, they are not loosing money. That same liberal government up there allows the electric company to jack up the electric rates on everyone else to pay for it. That is one big reason why their electric rates are more than twice what you pay. What is sad the people who buy the Solar Systems up there can afford to pay full price for the system, and it is the poor and middle income wage earners who have to pay for it by jacked up electric rates.

So count your blessing you live in a conservative state with dirt cheap electric rates. That is why TX is not suffering through the recession like most other states and our economy is healthy.

[russ]

I would love to sell a 5 kW system for 70,000$ - >I would even give a discount to 69,000

Should be something like 5$ per DC watt - installed unless there are special circumstances.

That would cover maybe 20% of your electric bill.

[BriteLeaf]

In your case no. Because if you are using 85 Kwh per day and only having a $200/month bill tells me you are paying rock bottom prices for electricity of around $0.08/Kwh. National average has come down to $0.109/Kwh and there are people who are paying as much as $0.39/Kwh. So where you are electricity is dirt cheap and no RE system can compete with that


You only meet one of those conditions, solar insolation. Just to shave 50% off your bill would require a 15 KW grid tied system. In Texas that would cost you $60,000 after federal tax credit is applied. Since you do not have that kind of cash would require a loan. At 10 year term and 6% interest your monthly payment would be $666.00 plus another $100 from the POCO. You would be paying roughly 400% more for electricity. The numbers just do not work for you.

Lastly you need a major life style change. I live near Dallas and we are warmer than you. I have a 2600/ft2 home and I use 1/3 the energy you do. A lot of that difference is my home was designed to be very efficient. But you are using enough energy for a luxury 5000 to 6000/ft2 home on a beer budget. How old is your home. Most likely you will get the most bang for your buck with a complete remodeling of your home, and a life style change.

I actually pay just under .08 per Kwh after the fuel surcharge has been added.

My home has brand new (less than 10 years old) double paned? windows (2 pieces of glass filled with Argon (I think) gas).

My home is a two story, approximately 3000 sq. ft. with 10' vaulted ceilings, and it was built circa 1950ish, so no, it is DEFINITELY NOT energy efficient, but it has been fully caulked inside and out, and it has attic insulation batting with an R-31 rating.

For a 4 - 5 Kwh system, it would cost me in the neighborhood of around $70K, of which the government would give me X back, and the power company would give me Y back, making my total out of pocket cost in the range of about 47K.

That would (supposedly) not take me off the grid, but cover most of my electric bill, and if I have a surplus the Power Company would buy it back at about a nickle per Kwh. Big joke considering I hear Pennsylvania buys the surplus up there back at somewhere around .47 per Kwh.

Either way, it is way outta my league.

[russ]

I believe many utilities have free or low cost services in this direction.

[Naptown]

BriteLeaf, Texas is the "single pane" capital of America. The simplest solution out there oftentimes is new windows and better insulation. If your attic isn't sealed, then a forced ventilation unit would be very helpful, even a solar attic fan.


Spend about $2000-$3000 on windows and insulation and cut your bill by anywhere from 30-60%.

Please check with a building science expert before installing the fan. There are situations where these can cause more harm than good. An energy audit by a competent auditor would be the first step toward reducing your utility costs.

[KRenn]

BriteLeaf, Texas is the "single pane" capital of America. The simplest solution out there oftentimes is new windows and better insulation. If your attic isn't sealed, then a forced ventilation unit would be very helpful, even a solar attic fan.


Spend about $2000-$3000 on windows and insulation and cut your bill by anywhere from 30-60%.

[Sunking]

I have to admit that it is a little bit discouraging.

And you are right about two things for sure... 1) This Summer has ABSOLUTELY BEEN BRUTAL!!!!, and 2) my house isn't even CLOSE to being worth that much lol

All that being said though, are you trying to completely talk me out of supplementing my electricity with Solar Power? I am thinking even if I ran just a few of my most power hog electrical items during the day on Solar Energy, it should lower my bill considerably. Would that be feasable?

In your case no. Because if you are using 85 Kwh per day and only having a $200/month bill tells me you are paying rock bottom prices for electricity of around $0.08/Kwh. National average has come down to $0.109/Kwh and there are people who are paying as much as $0.39/Kwh. So where you are electricity is dirt cheap and no RE system can compete with that

The only solar power system that can have a payback is a grid tied system, and conditions have to be right. Things like:

• High Electric rates.
• Net Metering Laws in place
• State and Local incentives on top of Federal incentives.
• SREC solar renewable energy credits or carbon taxes
• Excellent solar insolation.

You only meet one of those conditions, solar insolation. Just to shave 50% off your bill would require a 15 KW grid tied system. In Texas that would cost you $60,000 after federal tax credit is applied. Since you do not have that kind of cash would require a loan. At 10 year term and 6% interest your monthly payment would be $666.00 plus another $100 from the POCO. You would be paying roughly 400% more for electricity. The numbers just do not work for you.

Lastly you need a major life style change. I live near Dallas and we are warmer than you. I have a 2600/ft2 home and I use 1/3 the energy you do. A lot of that difference is my home was designed to be very efficient. But you are using enough energy for a luxury 5000 to 6000/ft2 home on a beer budget. How old is your home. Most likely you will get the most bang for your buck with a complete remodeling of your home, and a life style change.

[russ]

Your choice to run everything in the house 24/7 means you are screwed for economical RE.

The first step is always conservation - that is far cheaper than solar power.

You certainly can use solar PV to replace any or all of your consumption but in place of your 200$ bill it will be a 1,000$ bill or more.

[BriteLeaf]

Briteleaf as a fellow Texan listen to me for a minute. You may not like what I have to say, but it is real and truth. I am not trying to hurt your feelings or be sarcastic, but you need to wake up and look at real numbers. I am a professional engineer who has been designing off-grid battery systems for just over 10 years.

I know where Atlanta Texas is just south of Texarkana near the Arkansas border, you are not far from me in DFW area. I know what you pay for electricity, who your utility is, and climate. If your summer bill is $200 tells me you are using right around 1800 to 2000 Kwh per month or 60 Kwh per day. That is a huge amount of electricity. You are using about 3 times more electricity then the average USA house hold uses. A lot of that has to do with living in TX and are air conditioning bills. This summer has been brutal.

So if you wanted to replace the power company and go off grid would require a NASA budget. You would need a 20,000 watt solar panel array. I do not think your home is even large enough to place that many panels. As for the batteries I will not throw the technical stuff out like voltage or amp hours because I doubt it would mean anything to you, but you will understand 20,000 pounds of lead. You would have to file EPA permits and pass yearly inspections by th elocal fire department because you would be considered a toxic hazardous site which poses a significant risk to the public. In addition you would need to build an addition to your home to hold all the batteries with Spill Containment and fire protection system.

But here is what you really need to know. To go off grid you are looking at $160,000 to $200,000 just for the equipment. That does not include the labor and housing addition, permits, and legal fees. I seriously doubt your home is even worth that much. The fun part is you get to replace that $50,000 battery in about 5 to 6 years. That only includes the cost of the batteries. No labor or disposal fees for all that toxic waste the EPA will require you to track and be liable for.

As for a grid tied system, well the story is a bit better but not much because you live in TX. There are no NET METERING laws where you live. That means the POCO will only give you about 5 or 6 cents per Kwh, and still charge you 10 cents for what you buy. That means you still get a nice electric bill to pay. So here is how it stacks up you would need a 10 to 14 Kw Grid tied system. Since you cannot pay cash, you would need a loan of about $50,000 to $60,000. So if it is a 10 year term @ 6% your monthly loan payment is $560/month, plus about a $50 to $60 month electric bill on top of the loan payment. So you go from paying $200/month for electricity to $600/month.

Those are the numbers neighbor. Make your choice wisely.

Actually, that $200.00+ isn't just for the Summer months, it is year round, month after month after month. I average about 2600 Kwh per month. According to my figures, that is about 85 Kwh per day. now I KNOW I can cut back on some of it, by turning off my computers and televisions, but that is a choice I make. Again, I am not trying to go completely off grid. I'd just like to cut my Electric bill in half and still do the same things that I am doing.

You are not hurting my feelings, nor do I believe that you are being sarcastic in any way. What you ARE doing is giving me information which I obviously lack, and for that, I really appreciate you taking the time to explain things.

You are right... Not only do I not have enough house for all of those panels, I don't have enough house and yard combined for that many lol

It does make me wonder though...

If it is really all that difficult to do this, and the more I read this board, the more I believe it is, why do people even bother trying to use Solar Energy?

I have to admit that it is a little bit discouraging.

And you are right about two things for sure... 1) This Summer has ABSOLUTELY BEEN BRUTAL!!!!, and 2) my house isn't even CLOSE to being worth that much lol

All that being said though, are you trying to completely talk me out of supplementing my electricity with Solar Power? I am thinking even if I ran just a few of my most power hog electrical items during the day on Solar Energy, it should lower my bill considerably. Would that be feasable?

Thank you again for taking the time to give me your thoughts on this subject.

[Sunking]

Will I ever be able to go completely off the grid?

I am not deluding myself. I am sure that I won't be able to. That being said, I have a $200.00+ dollar per month electric bill that I would at least like to cut in half.

Briteleaf as a fellow Texan listen to me for a minute. You may not like what I have to say, but it is real and truth. I am not trying to hurt your feelings or be sarcastic, but you need to wake up and look at real numbers. I am a professional engineer who has been designing off-grid battery systems for just over 10 years.

I know where Atlanta Texas is just south of Texarkana near the Arkansas border, you are not far from me in DFW area. I know what you pay for electricity, who your utility is, and climate. If your summer bill is $200 tells me you are using right around 1800 to 2000 Kwh per month or 60 Kwh per day. That is a huge amount of electricity. You are using about 3 times more electricity then the average USA house hold uses. A lot of that has to do with living in TX and are air conditioning bills. This summer has been brutal.

So if you wanted to replace the power company and go off grid would require a NASA budget. You would need a 20,000 watt solar panel array. I do not think your home is even large enough to place that many panels. As for the batteries I will not throw the technical stuff out like voltage or amp hours because I doubt it would mean anything to you, but you will understand 20,000 pounds of lead. You would have to file EPA permits and pass yearly inspections by th elocal fire department because you would be considered a toxic hazardous site which poses a significant risk to the public. In addition you would need to build an addition to your home to hold all the batteries with Spill Containment and fire protection system.

But here is what you really need to know. To go off grid you are looking at $160,000 to $200,000 just for the equipment. That does not include the labor and housing addition, permits, and legal fees. I seriously doubt your home is even worth that much. The fun part is you get to replace that $50,000 battery in about 5 to 6 years. That only includes the cost of the batteries. No labor or disposal fees for all that toxic waste the EPA will require you to track and be liable for.

As for a grid tied system, well the story is a bit better but not much because you live in TX. There are no NET METERING laws where you live. That means the POCO will only give you about 5 or 6 cents per Kwh, and still charge you 10 cents for what you buy. That means you still get a nice electric bill to pay. So here is how it stacks up you would need a 10 to 14 Kw Grid tied system. Since you cannot pay cash, you would need a loan of about $50,000 to $60,000. So if it is a 10 year term @ 6% your monthly loan payment is $560/month, plus about a $50 to $60 month electric bill on top of the loan payment. So you go from paying $200/month for electricity to $600/month.

Those are the numbers neighbor. Make your choice wisely.

[KRenn]

CitizenRE strikes back!

I see that CitizenRe is back in full force. You've got scores of wannabe-MLM millionaires trolling Craigslist and posting ads about solar but never identifying the installer, the modules or pretty much anything else about the system.

Here is an example of one such "ecopreneur."

http://www.homesolarusa.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=44&Itemid=66

I'd be worried about any company that claims "it may be a year or more before your system is installed.


Oh, and don't worry folks, its not a solar lease, its solar RENT.

[BriteLeaf]

You say you have very limited amounts of money but you will be spending about $3000 and no guarantee whatsoever that you will make them successfully.. Then what? You make another batch and try to rectify all the things you did wrong in the first batch?

First of all, I would like to thank you (Really, I do thank you! (I am not trying to sound sarcastic, as I really do appreciate your input) ) for your input and criticism.

I guess I misspoke myself. That does tend to happen from time to time with the written and not spoken word.

Of course if I can't make a good panel on the first try, I won't be able to, nor would I try, to keep pouring money into it. However, since I have gone this far already, I am commited to at least trying it once.

Will I ever be able to go completely off the grid?

I am not deluding myself. I am sure that I won't be able to. That being said, I have a $200.00+ dollar per month electric bill that I would at least like to cut in half.

But still, even if I bought the panels, there will still be the other startup costs to consider. (i.e. the inverter, a few batteries, and the control box at the very least.)

And most likely, after my first attempt, I will more than likely go ahead and buy the already built panels, because as you stated previously, after all is said and done, the cost will be pretty close to the same to buy, vs. build my own. Plus the UL factor, as well as many other factors. Why build it if you can have it built for you at close to the same price?

Of course, I am looking at all of this with hindsight at this time, so it is a learning process for me.

Again, John, I would sincerely like to thank you for your input.