Understanding NEM 2.0 on SDGE

[bmms8]

I installed a 6 kw system 2 years ago, im on nem 2.0 with SDGE. Im adding 2.5 more kw next week. My solar install company (baker) stated i need to shift to a TOU since im adding more than 10%. I called to SDGE this morning, and they said 2.0 members are grandfathered in for 5 years whether adding more panels or not and i dont need to change my plan. I will reconfirm with SDGE but does anyone have a straight answer?

Im on the standard tiered, i will charge two EVs once panels are installed. Looking to go EV-TOU5 unless i can stick with standard tier and it makes more sense to stay compared to EV plan. Thanks so much in advance!

[jflorey2]

Im on the standard tiered, i will charge two EVs once panels are installed. Looking to go EV-TOU5 unless i can stick with standard tier and it makes more sense to stay compared to EV plan. Thanks so much in advance!

Just a warning - EV-TOU-5 has insane prices for on peak (52 cents per kwhr I believe.) This helps you with solar generation, but hurts you if you use power from the 6-9pm time period (low generation, often high loads.) And most people use a lot of power during that time. If you can move most/all of your consumption to super off peak (charging your EV, running dishwasher, running electric dryer etc) then it can work pretty well.

[bmms8]

Just a warning - EV-TOU-5 has insane prices for on peak (52 cents per kwhr I believe.) This helps you with solar generation, but hurts you if you use power from the 6-9pm time period (low generation, often high loads.) And most people use a lot of power during that time. If you can move most/all of your consumption to super off peak (charging your EV, running dishwasher, running electric dryer etc) then it can work pretty well.

Thanks for the help! Luckily we hand wash our dishes and have a gas dryer. We do use the AC in summer time so thats the only thing that will really hurt us.

[J.P.M.]

If you are on schedule DR, that is, tiered rates, the grandfathering they are referring to doesn't mean anything to you. Grandfathering refers to those on T.O.U. rates who got there before the T.O.U. times changed and made PV ~ 20 -23 % less cost effective. Those folks will stay grandfathered for 5 years after their PTO took effect (note: NOT 5 years from the rate change date).

If you change (enlarge) your system, I believe you will be changed to T.O.U. rates and off tiered rates, but if you got in under the wire (grandfathered), you'll be grandfathered under the old T.O.U. times that are more cost effective for 5 yrs. from your original PTO, but I'm not positive about that. So if I were you, I'd call SDG & E back and slowly explain your situation and possible confusion. I'd also double check and see if you can stay on tiered rates, that is schedule DR. I'm on NEM 1.0 and I can stay there with a positive election and notification to SDG & E of my intent to do so, but it ain't automatic. At thais time I intend to stay on tiered rates at least until an EV enters the picture, or for 20 yrs. after PTO, or I get carried out on my shield, whichever come first.

What I wouldn't do is take what some vendor says, or what I might think, or what some other equally semi-anonymous poster on a forum may think. Get it from SDG & E in writing. They are the correct authority.

I've found them hit or miss on helpfulness.

Sometimes asking the same question more than once on more than one call helps them get it right.

[bmms8]

If you are on schedule DR, that is, tiered rates, the grandfathering they are referring to doesn't mean anything to you. Grandfathering refers to those on T.O.U. rates who got there before the T.O.U. times changed and made PV ~ 20 -23 % less cost effective. Those folks will stay grandfathered for 5 years after their PTO took effect (note: NOT 5 years from the rate change date).

If you change (enlarge) your system, I believe you will be changed to T.O.U. rates and off tiered rates, but if you got in under the wire (grandfathered), you'll be grandfathered under the old T.O.U. times that are more cost effective for 5 yrs. from your original PTO, but I'm not positive about that. So if I were you, I'd call SDG & E back and slowly explain your situation and possible confusion. I'd also double check and see if you can stay on tiered rates, that is schedule DR. I'm on NEM 1.0 and I can stay there with a positive election and notification to SDG & E of my intent to do so, but it ain't automatic. At thais time I intend to stay on tiered rates at least until an EV enters the picture, or for 20 yrs. after PTO, or I get carried out on my shield, whichever come first.

What I wouldn't do is take what some vendor says, or what I might think, or what some other equally semi-anonymous poster on a forum may think. Get it from SDG & E in writing. They are the correct authority.

I've found them hit or miss on helpfulness.

Sometimes asking the same question more than once on more than one call helps them get it right.

Thanks JPM for the always insightful info. I called SDGE twice and spoke with two solar specialists who said i can stay on standard tier but i will give it another shot Monday. Our ev charging each month will be about 700 kw so with the data i have it makes sense to switch over to TOU-5 anyways but will triple check.

[J.P.M.]

Thanks JPM for the always insightful info. I called SDGE twice and spoke with two solar specialists who said i can stay on standard tier but i will give it another shot Monday. Our ev charging each month will be about 700 kw so with the data i have it makes sense to switch over to TOU-5 anyways but will triple check.

You're most welcome, but one of us is as smart as all of us. More cynical than insightful maybe.

How did the install go w/Baker ?

[bmms8]

You're most welcome, but one of us is as smart as all of us. More cynical than insightful maybe.

How did the install go w/Baker ?

Cynical? No way, your presence is highly respected here!

i couldn't be more happier with Baker. To me they are the way a company should be. Ran well etc

[J.P.M.]

Cynical? No way, your presence is highly respected here!

i couldn't be more happier with Baker. To me they are the way a company should be. Ran well etc

On the first comment opinions vary. On the second, as I wrote on one of your threads ~ 2 yrs. ago, I wanted Baker to do my install, but it was take it or leave it. They wouldn't negotiate. I got Milholland to do the same equipment with more bells/whistles with equal quality on install for < 90% as much as Baker. But Baker does do good work.

[Ampster]

Thanks for the help! Luckily we hand wash our dishes and have a gas dryer. We do use the AC in summer time so thats the only thing that will really hurt us.

If your home is well insulated you can precool your home during mid peak to reduce your peak usage. You already have 700kwh of EV charging that you can shift to off peak.

[bmms8]

If your home is well insulated you can precool your home during mid peak to reduce your peak usage. You already have 700kwh of EV charging that you can shift to off peak.

That's something I'll look into. I know nothing about it though. Any recommendations?

[bmms8]

On the first comment opinions vary. On the second, as I wrote on one of your threads ~ 2 yrs. ago, I wanted Baker to do my install, but it was take it or leave it. They wouldn't negotiate. I got Milholland to do the same equipment with more bells/whistles with equal quality on install for < 90% as much as Baker. But Baker does do good work.

Interesting, Baker definitely worked with me and I wasn't able to lower their bid by about 7%. They were still not the cheapest but I was most comfortable with them. I've referred 4 people to Baker so I have made that back, if one sees it that way

[Ampster]

That's something I'll look into. I know nothing about it though. Any recommendations?

First, understand what your rate periods are on TOU.
I track my usage from each bill on a spreadsheet and follow my cumulative credit. I use a programmable thermostat and depending on how much credit I have accumulated I can increase or decrease my consumption during peak. I have two EVs but have the option of charging one for free.

It is a fun challenge for me to optimize my usage and generation. The sweet spot for me is to consume more than I generate but end up with a cumulative credit.

[J.P.M.]

First, understand what your rate periods are on TOU.
I track my usage from each bill on a spreadsheet and follow my cumulative credit. I use a programmable thermostat and depending on how much credit I have accumulated I can increase or decrease my consumption during peak. I have two EVs but have the option of charging one for free.

It is a fun challenge for me to optimize my usage and generation. The sweet spot for me is to consume more than I generate but end up with a cumulative credit.

NOMB, but aside from discussions on the slippery slope about not oversizing an array as a design consideration, I'd think perhaps a better sweet spot might be one that had a net usage from the POCO that resulted in a usage and so a billing that just matched the min. monthly charge I was going to get whacked as a min. anyway. As long as I'm going to pay $120/yr, or ~ 10 bucks/mo. I might as well get something for it.

If I ever switch to TOU, that would sure be a consideration for me (only). To me (anyway) given the low $/kWh paid for overgeneration, I can find a lot of ways to burn through $10 worth of electricity that I'm paying for whether I use it or not.

[Ampster]

NOMB, but aside from discussions on the slippery slope about not oversizing an array as a design consideration, I'd think perhaps a better sweet spot might be one that had a net usage from the POCO that resulted in a usage and so a billing that just matched the min. monthly charge I was going to get whacked as a min. anyway. As long as I'm going to pay $120/yr, or ~ 10 bucks/mo. I might as well get something for it.

If I ever switch to TOU, that would sure be a consideration for me (only). To me (anyway) given the low $/kWh paid for overgeneration, I can find a lot of ways to burn through $10 worth of electricity that I'm paying for whether I use it or not.

Design consideration? I think it is more about philosophy than design.
Better sweet spot? Everyone's sweet spot is different based on the shape of our indifference curve. It all depends on where they are standing. Your sweet spot is your sweet spot and mine is mine. What I like about TOU is that with load shifting, I can consume more kiloWatthours than I generate and not pay a dime extra. Mathematically I believe it is impossible to do that with a tiered rate.
You may be saying the same thing with regard to TOU rates, but I am not sure why you mention over generation. What I am suggesting is not an over generation concept..The concept is to run a net cumulative credit but consume more kWhrs than you generate. At true up those items wash. Then If you divide those minimum charges by the kWhrs consumed (net of production) your cost of those kWhrs is lower than the cheapest TOU off peak rate. The more "free" kWhrs you consume the better it gets. I define "free" kWhrs as consumption that exceeds production while at the same time running a cumulative credit. With NBCs on NEM 2.0 you can never get below the NBC rate.

[J.P.M.]

Design consideration? I think it is more about philosophy than design.
Better sweet spot? Everyone's sweet spot is different based on the shape of our indifference curve. It all depends on where they are standing. Your sweet spot is your sweet spot and mine is mine. What I like about TOU is that with load shifting, I can consume more kiloWatthours than I generate and not pay a dime extra. Mathematically I believe it is impossible to do that with a tiered rate.
You may be saying the same thing with regard to TOU rates, but I am not sure why you mention over generation. What I am suggesting is not an over generation concept..The concept is to run a net cumulative credit but consume more kWhrs than you generate. At true up those items wash. Then If you divide those minimum charges by the kWhrs consumed (net of production) your cost of those kWhrs is lower than the cheapest TOU off peak rate. The more "free" kWhrs you consume the better it gets. I define "free" kWhrs as consumption that exceeds production while at the same time running a cumulative credit. With NBCs on NEM 2.0 you can never get below the NBC rate.

I started that post with a comment about not getting into design because I think you're into a topic that's related to system sizing, and that relates to design as part of design considerations of goals related to system sizing and so how much of a bill to offset.

You and I and others have the system we have. Now, for many of us with operating systems, and as a practical matter, it's a matter of gaming the POCO rate systems we work with to minimize a bill in the face of changing rules, tariffs and billing systems. I get that.

To me, and what I didn't want to get into as it's a bit off topic, is that the sweet spot is about the least long term cost in NPV $$'s, including PV system acquisition, maint. and other system related costs, and total utility bills to provide electrical service to my property at an acceptable level of safety and reliability. That was one of my design goals. For me, and in the current rate/rule climate, because POCOs generally make overgeneration reimbursement rates so low, overgenerating can quickly and very noticeably impair cost effectiveness. For me, and I suspect others in situations similar to mine, to the extent my lowest NPV goal is a priority, that makes oversizing something to be done with a lot of thought and care.

I mention overgeneration because, in the general sense it often implies oversizing at the design phase. While oversizing is certainly a choice for each owner, oversizing is also usually the single biggest single factor in killing cost effectiveness and the one most easily avoided. My guess is that if the real impact of oversizing were better known and understood by potential owners, systems fewer systems would be as large as they are.

But, most folks already have what they have and for such owners talking about the design question of sizing for optimum cost effectiveness for an existing system is probably off the table.

The issue of gaming/ a TOU rate schedule by time shifting loads and so make it quite possible to actually generate less electricity than is used and still wind up with a minimum bill has been hashed out here at length. You're just late to the party. The strongest and best informed advocate of the idea was a poster w/the handle Sensij. He's been gone for a couple of years now, and IMO, that's the forum's loss but that's off topic. The conversations he, I and others had here are what got me thinking in terms of considering a PV system as an income generator on a TOU system rather than simply a mini power station.

(Short descrip. on that: My system under current my TOU rates and using PVWatts output, will generate ~ $462/yr. per STC kW, either as an offset to contemporaneous usage or as offset against future usage at an average rate of ~ $0.2656/kWh. as long as I don't overgenerate on an annual basis. If I oversize and overgenerate, that per kWh rate drops like a stone. See prior posts). NBC will reduce that $462 some, but it's impossible to generalize how much beyond a max. value of the unlikely situation where all usage occurs when the system is not generating. Besides, at this time, NBC for SDG & E is $0.01891/kWh. So, my 5.232 kW system will generate ~ $2,417/yr. in "revenue" that I can "spend" by using energy as I choose, all on or all off peak, or anywhere in between. For design considerations, the initial generation "revenue" is the same, regardless of my usage pattern.)

The point of my prior post to this thread, that you seem to have confirmed, was that everyone's sweet spot is different (and if you're going to quote me, use the whole quote. I wrote "....perhaps a better sweet spot...". Knock off the cherry picking of words.

I only pointed out that for some, like me for example, and apparently unlike you, a "sweeter" spot is perhaps, and often not, overgenerating, but rather using enough energy so that the min. yearly charge ($120/yr. for me) gets paid to the POCO for energy I use, and not simply as an access fee.

Or, to address your question (?) of why I even bring up discussions about design (phase) considerations: Working on long term probable/possible output, I could reduce the design size of an array to produce ~ 450kWh/yr. less output (~ 450/1,700 = 250 STC W or maybe 1 panel for my location) and wind up being billed $120 for that 450 kWh rather than paying $120 to SDG & E for nothing.

I try to look at the bigger picture as well as the specific details on the remote possibility someone besides you is reading this slop and considering a PV system, and that they may get another angle or way to look at the situation. Part of the "take what you want and scrap the rest" attitude.

I appreciate that we may be trying to separate fly crap from pepper here, but I only point out as I did in the post, and reiterate here, that there are other, perhaps most cost effective ways of looking at the situation than what you have described, depending on someone's situation and goals.

For those considering PV, if lowest long term cost of providing power is one goal and consideration, knowledge of rate structures and billing options is a necessary but often overlooked, and maybe first step in the design phase. But, once a PV system is acquired and rates, billing schedules and tariffs change, as the surely will, it's always a good idea to know what options exist and how the game is run to have the best chance of getting the most bang for one's buck in terms what is paid for power consistent with goals and lifestyle. Playing head's up ball in such ways usually gets more choices than previously thought of. Often, that results in a better system or outcome.