Advice needed: Panasonic VBHN330SA17 vs SunPower SPR-E19-320 vs LG 335N1C-A5

[maxim]

Looking for a 4-5kw system in San Diego and got several bids that are coming in at a very similar price but with different panels. Would appreciate a ranking of these assuming the same price. If it matters, shading is a non issue at my house.

I suspect the SunPower e19-320 sticks out as being the older panel to stay away from for the price, is that right?
Otherwise LG and Panasonic are perhaps a toss up?

thanks!

edit: how blue is the sunpower e19 in reality compared to the other two?

[discodanman45]

I had a SolarEdge system with Mission Solar 300 Watt panels that was quoted at $2.55 a Watt before the incentive from a reputable installer. I now wish I went with that deal instead of the nonsense I dealt with. There are a lot of other quality panels out there besides LG/Panasonic/Sunpower for a fraction of the cost. I would only go with a high efficiency panel if you don't have a lot of roof space.

[maxim]

I had a SolarEdge system with Mission Solar 300 Watt panels that was quoted at $2.55 a Watt before the incentive from a reputable installer. I now wish I went with that deal instead of the nonsense I dealt with. There are a lot of other quality panels out there besides LG/Panasonic/Sunpower for a fraction of the cost. I would only go with a high efficiency panel if you don't have a lot of roof space.

thanks thats a good consideration. In this case as I suspect these panels are quite a bit cheaper and older, I would expect the cost savings to be passed on to me but thats not the case. It's still roughly the same price as Panasonic or LG panels.

I suspect what happened here was that as they're a SunPower-only installer and I asked them to price match, they did but are trying to slip in this older panel. The SunPower e19 series seems like it's been discontinued with the e20's taking their place.

Can someone confirm?

[J.P.M.]

Sunpower is good stuff but overpriced for what you get.

Beyond some basic quality level, panels are a commodity.

Spend more time on vendor evaluation. A few extra $$ spent with an established vendor will be worth it. Also, get your roof inspected and serviced as necessary. PV will last a long time. Give the roof under it the highest probability of lasting as long. Cheap insurance.

If you're interested in some considerations about system sizing and T.O.U. realities in San Diego, read on, if not don't:

In San Diego, and under the new SDG & E T.O.U. regime you will be billed under rate DR-SES - the T.O.U. residential rate for PV system owners. Until your system size generates more than you use in a year, every installed STC kW of PV will offset about $420 - $450/yr. of your new (T.O.U) electric bill. $420/yr., +/- ~ 10 % or so, depending largely on the weather. That's ~ $450/yr. per STC kW for a 180deg. az., 20 deg. tilt. or $420/yr. per STC kW for 270 deg. azimuth, 20 deg. tilt.

So, at current rates and SDG & E T.O.U plan for those with PV systems, a 5 kW system at, say, a 180 deg. azimuth and 20 deg. tilt will off set (~ $450/yr. per STC kW) * (5 kW) = ~ $2,250/yr. +/- probably +/- ~ 10% or so for weather variation yr./yr.

You then get to spend that on electricity to offset your electric bill. Use a lot during summer peak hours and your bill will be higher. Use less and/or avoid use during peak rate summer hours and your remaining bill will be less.

Until you oversize, what your system will generate in terms of revenue is pretty much (but not entirely) separate from how you use electricity and how you get billed for it. The amount of $ generation a system will produce is mostly independent of how much electricity is used or when it's used.

Overgeneration will get reimbursed by SDG & E at only something like ~ $0.03 to $ 0.05/kWh. If you get a system for, say, $3.00*.70 per STC W, the payback on the oversized portion of an array something like (($3.00/STC W)*.70))/(($0.04/kWh)*(1.7 kWh generation/STC W per yr.)) ~ 31 yrs. or so, again, for the oversized portion of an array. That's one reason why oversizing hurts system cost effectiveness.

Some oversizing is perhaps prudent (10% ??), but I'd guess if folks knew what it did to long term cost effectiveness of a PV system, they might be less prone to gross oversizing. But NOMB/not my money/life/concern.

Take what you want of the above. scrap the rest.

J.P.M., zip 92026.

[maxim]

Thanks for the details. I'll be diving into these numbers shortly. I read often about sunpower coming in at a higher $/w but in this case it's overall comparable. My concern is with the specific sunpower panel proposed. It's not the high end x series and I'm worried that I am overpaying for this specific panel as it seems quite old.

Any info there would be appreciated

[J.P.M.]

Thanks for the details. I'll be diving into these numbers shortly. I read often about sunpower coming in at a higher $/w but in this case it's overall comparable. My concern is with the specific sunpower panel proposed. It's not the high end x series and I'm worried that I am overpaying for this specific panel as it seems quite old.

Any info there would be appreciated

Info to your request: there are a lot of other quality panels besides those you list. Most of the others cost a good deal less that those you list. Spend more concern on quality vendors and a bit less on initial price. Chasing low initial buck is a fool's errand. Worry more about vendor quality than panel name recognition.

Once more, S.P. is good stuff. But beyond some basic quality level, panels are panels. FWIW, I own a S.P. system. It works fine and has for 5+ years. I expect that performance to continue. I got the S.P. system knowing it's not cost effective and suspected it's no better than other systems, but having more time than money and more money than brains, I wanted to verify the S.P. claims for myself. I am now of the opinion that my initial thinking was and still is correct. My system's output is good, but not much better, if at all, than the other 150 or so other arrays in my HOA, most of which are not S.P. If it is better it's because I optimized the design. The output is also about the same as most of the arrays that can be found in my area using PVOutput.org. It's also no better or worse than the 10 or so other arrays in my HOA that my neighbors allow me to monitor their systems on an informal basis.

Swallow the S.P. hype if you like, but know that the "efficiency" the hype to the heavens is an AREA efficiency and meaningless unless you're severely limited for available array area.

Here's some realities you won't find in the S.P. hype:
- All equal (electrical) sized arrays (5 kW for example) of reasonable quality in the same location, orientation and duty will produce about equal annual output for as long as you're likely to own one.
- Panels of reasonable quality seem to have very high reliability, S.P.'s and every other quality panel. They seem not to fail, with the rare failure usually being infant mortality in nature. That takes most of the wind (or hot air) out of the S.P. warranty sails.
- There is no way an average user will ever be able to determine whether or not a panel's performance has deteriorated to the point of qualify for a warranty clam. "Guaranteed output" is, in a practical and actual sense, meaningless. If you think comparing output to a warrantied output is possible, please tell me how you think you'd go about it, but only do so after you read the fine print and the entire S.P. (or anyone else's for that matter) performance warranty.

What you do get with a S.P. system, IMO only, is bragging rights - kind of like driving a tricked out and rebadged Toyota (also known as a Lexus). Folks informed about the realities know that you left a lot of money on the table.

But, your life/$$/choice and hail the freedom to choose, and NOMB.

[discodanman45]

Thanks for the details. I'll be diving into these numbers shortly. I read often about sunpower coming in at a higher $/w but in this case it's overall comparable. My concern is with the specific sunpower panel proposed. It's not the high end x series and I'm worried that I am overpaying for this specific panel as it seems quite old.

Any info there would be appreciated

I had a Sunpower installer quote me $3.62 per Watt for a system. The same installer quoted me a SolarEdge system with Mission Solar Panels at about the same size for $2.61 a Watt. If I put up a 10 kW system with Sunpower it would have cost me $36,200. The Mission Solar system would have cost me $26,100. After the 30% tax credit the Mission Solar Panels would have cost $7070 less. You could have added a Powerwall to the SolarEdge system with that savings...

Or you can think about it this way... A 10 kW system with Sunpower would have cost me $36,200. I could have got a 14 kW SolarEdge system for the same price. Same installer and an extra 4 kW. Just like JPM said, the only way you can justify paying extra for Sunpower is if you have money to waste or have a limiting roof plan where every square inch is important.

[J.P.M.]

I had a Sunpower installer quote me $3.62 per Watt for a system. The same installer quoted me a SolarEdge system with Mission Solar Panels at about the same size for $2.61 a Watt. If I put up a 10 kW system with Sunpower it would have cost me $36,200. The Mission Solar system would have cost me $26,100. After the 30% tax credit the Mission Solar Panels would have cost $7070 less. You could have added a Powerwall to the SolarEdge system with that savings...

Or you can think about it this way... A 10 kW system with Sunpower would have cost me $36,200. I could have got a 14 kW SolarEdge system for the same price. Same installer and an extra 4 kW. Just like JPM said, the only way you can justify paying extra for Sunpower is if you have money to waste or have a limiting roof plan where every square inch is important.

Something else not usually mentioned or thought of when dealing with limited (usually) roof space is the option of going with a smaller (electrical size) non S.P. system and accepting about 20 % less annual output for the same (physical, length X width) size. In such cases, the extra NPV difference in cost of a S.P. system vs. a on S.P. would be compared against the NPV of the likely extra production by the S.P. system due to space constraints - in effect, looking for which option leaves you with more $$ at the end of a chosen length of time after time value of money considerations and acting according to that and all the other decision making criteria as your needs and inclinations dictate.

[Ampster]

I got a 4 kW Sunpower system installed last year for $3.00 per Watt. That was an unusually good price because I already had the stanchions on the roof and wire in conduit from the roof to my service panel. In addition it was a replacement for a previous system that had been removed, so the installer had very little paperwork and I pulled the building permit.

[slrcapt]

Spend more time on vendor evaluation. A few extra $$ spent with an established vendor will be worth it.

This.

Installers source their parts from the same shops. What makes the difference is the skill of the vendor.

[huge]

I think you guys are arguing a different argument. You are arguing that you shouldn't pay extra for a certain brand.

His question is not that. He wants to know, given the same price, which is better?

He is not paying extra for the Sunpower brand

[Markyrocks69]

My question is for the same price are you getting an extra panel or so with the sunpower setup? I only ask bc they're 15 watts less per panel than the lg.

The only other thing I can add is the sunpower power tolerance or w/e is 0-+5% whereas the lg is 0-+3% so theres the potential to have the sunpower panels to put out a hair more. On average if you figure out of 20-30 panels the lg will be roughly +1.5% more the sunpower on average would be like +2.5% more. That 1% isn't a ton but it matters.

[J.P.M.]

This.

Installers source their parts from the same shops. What makes the difference is the skill of the vendor.

FWIW, just about 110 % +1 on that. I'd add integrity to skill.

Maybe a poor example, but I've seen it: 10 ga. copper wire looks a lot like 12 ga. in most respects. As a practical matter, for most roof jobs, only the vendor will even know which was used. Choose your vendor wisely.

[solar pete]

I think you guys are arguing a different argument. You are arguing that you shouldn't pay extra for a certain brand.

His question is not that. He wants to know, given the same price, which is better?

What all the learned folks are saying is they are basically the same, at the end of the day solar panels are very simple animals, no moving parts, they are just a DC current source, they just sit there and work, spend your time choosing a quality installer AND most importantly get a quality inverter, cheers.