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Michigan installations? Grid-tied 4-6 kW system. Advice needed on DIY installation.

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  • Michigan installations? Grid-tied 4-6 kW system. Advice needed on DIY installation.

    Long story short.
    I started looking into PV system, on the grid, with net metering for our house in East Lansing.
    There was one company that turned out to be very pushy for me to sign the contract even before we got into any details. It had a very opposite effect... as you might imagine.
    The offered over 16k for 3kW system on East side... I said - no way east side.

    Anyway, when I started digging - it does not seem to be so complicated. I already started going through some regulations, talked to the township, asked fire chief, and so on.


    However, what I cannot find is - how actually it is going to work?
    I mean, there are some maps and calculators. I am not sure how optimistic they are.
    Therefore, I am calling out all MI owners who have panels on their properties to say how much energy actually they get.

    My calculations suggest I could offset at near 90% my average 500 kW/month usage by installing 4 kW system assuming 4 hr average full day light (in a year).

    I am anticipating expansion of the system to 6 kW due to plans of getting EV, such as 500e of eGolf in near future. That means, if the PV system works as intended.


    So, anyone, please advise me.
    I would really appreciate all DIY, small companies, and anyone who would be interested in helping me finish the project to contact me as well.
    I am sorry, I am not looking at large companies that double the system cost. DIY 6 kW is at about $10k... so here you have it - 3 kW $16k installed. No way.


    I am anticipating return within 5 years. Doable?

  • #2
    I would suggest that since you are planning to upgrade from 4kW to 6kW soon, that you just install 6kW now. It will be cheaper and better designed.

    For expansion you are going to be limited to SolarEdge or enphase primarily (others are possible but difficult). besides odd string calculations there is the very real fact that PV modules change almost annually so within about 2 years will be hard pressed to find the same PV modules you use today. With PV module level electronics, this is not a problem as you can mix almost any size PV module together with them, but with string inverters it is more difficult.

    That said I think your DIY estimate of 6kW for $10k is a bit low, and likely missing equipment like racking or flashed roof attachments, etc. You likely are not too far off though.

    You might consider getting the SolarEdge inverter with built in EV charger and knocking out two birds with one stone.
    https://www.solaredge.com/us/products/ev-charger#/

    Or with whatever inverter you go with, install the outlet for the EV charger at the same time, likely will save on electrician costs.
    OutBack FP1 w/ CS6P-250P http://bit.ly/1Sg5VNH

    Comment


    • #3
      Just go to 6kw, and save the expense of new permits and a redo of the sell to grid agreement. Later, you may have to revamp your whole project to some new code, so just do it and be done.
      Look into any roof repairs needing attention in the next 30 years, do them first. Taking panels off and putting back on is a PAIN, even if nothing breaks.
      Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
      || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
      || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

      solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
      gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

      Comment


      • #4
        Good Evening, my 2 cents on a 5 yr. R.O.I. Probably not gonna happen unless you have current expensive utility rates.

        I'm 1 yr. in on a self installed 4k system (ground mount, new panels, used micros) complete for less than a $1 per watt
        and I'm looking at 7 yrs. R.O.I. with $.09 per kwh utilities.

        Shop around, there are deals to be found. Good Luck

        Comment


        • #5
          If you haven't done so already, start with a read of "Solar Power Your Home for Dummies", a free online download or ~ $ 20 at bookstores/amazon. It's a bit dated but still a lot of pertinent information.

          Then,, since it sounds like you have not become familiar with PVWatts yet read up. It's a user friendly residential PV design model. Easy to learn. Read all the help/info screens a couple of times and then do few runs and use a 10 % system loss parameter rather than the 14 % default the model uses (you'll understand when you read the help screens). Get your orientations close to right, and zero in on a size. All that may take an hour or less.

          Then, make sure you can get net metering and learn/conform the POCO (POwer COmpany) rules you'll live with as well as the rate structure you'll be living with. That goes for any future EV's as well. That may be the biggest PITA of the process, but will pay dividends.

          FWIW, I'm unfamiliar with MI prices for PV, but 16 Large for a 3kW system is B.S. As Butch writes, you may get away with $10K or thereabouts for a 6 STC kW DIY, but study and learn what's involved and you may get close to that $10K if it is done right. It ain't rocket science, but there's more to it than installing a garage door with opener.

          I'd also go with the larger system you mention for the same reasons Mike notes.

          Biggest suggestion from me is get yourself educated before you spend any major money. After that come back here and fill in any knowledge gaps created by your self education. The more you educate yourself, the better the answers you get here will be.

          Welcome to the neighborhood.

          Comment


          • #6
            FYI, Michigan's great Public Service Commission has struck again and starting the first of the year reduced payback for solar. They ruined Geo thermal a couple of years ago and now are going after solar.

            The pay back was 1 to 1 net meter. Now if you supply 1 kwh and they give you back .77 kwh when you go to use it.

            So now you have to install ~a third larger system.

            Those that installed before the end of last year are grandfathered in to the 1 for 1 net metering rate for ten years.
            Last edited by NewBostonConst; 02-22-2019, 08:48 AM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by NewBostonConst View Post
              FYI, Michigan's great Public Service Commission has struck again and starting the first of the year reduced payback for solar. They ruined Geo thermal a couple of years ago and now are going after solar.

              The pay back was 1 to 1 net meter. Now if you supply 1 kwh and they give you back .77 kwh when you go to use it.

              So now you have to install ~a third larger system.

              Those that installed before the end of last year are grandfathered in to the 1 for 1 net metering rate for ten years.
              Puts a crimp in cost effectiveness as well, or makes the time to the simple (initial cost/annual bill offset) = years to payback longer by appox. 1/.77 times.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by NewBostonConst View Post
                FYI, Michigan's great Public Service Commission has struck
                again and starting the first of the year reduced payback for solar.

                The pay back was 1 to 1 net meter. Now if you supply 1 kwh and they give you back .77 kwh when
                you go to use it.
                Are they paying real money for your KWH, which you might buy back? Here nothing is paid for KWH I
                generate (in summer), but I can take them back (winter heat) at full credit up to reset at April 1, when
                excess credit is forfeited. A good deal for me, maybe not for others. Bruce Roe

                Comment


                • #9
                  Michigan doesn't reset but now only gets 2/3 back of what is pushed back into the grid. Thus we can use the credits years later.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by NewBostonConst View Post
                    Michigan doesn't reset but now only gets 2/3 back of what is
                    pushed back into the grid. Thus we can use the credits years later.
                    Are they paying real money for your KWH?

                    That gives me an idea, 2/3 of anything left over after my reset date might be credited to the next year,
                    if it was pushed out another year it would be 2/3 of that. This no reserve 1 April makes it a tough
                    month to collect as much as I need at the end of the heating season, though I have been making it.
                    Bruce Roe

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by bcroe View Post

                      Are they paying real money for your KWH?

                      That gives me an idea, 2/3 of anything left over after my reset date might be credited to the next year,
                      if it was pushed out another year it would be 2/3 of that. This no reserve 1 April makes it a tough
                      month to collect as much as I need at the end of the heating season, though I have been making it.
                      Bruce Roe
                      The biggest problem with POCO's is that they have been changing the rules on what they "credit" you for each kWh you send them. Some still give you 1 for 1 but now it seems most are finding ways to reduce the $ amount for each kWh they "buy" from you. It definitely screws up the ROI.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I am not sure where you guys found that Net Metering in MI is not 1:1... as I cannot actually verify that. So far I see 1:1 (kWh for kWh) ratio.

                        As per system - yes, I agree, making it full size from the get go makes much more sense. Just my concern is what will happen if I produce more than I can use


                        I found the PVWatts calculator. Thanks for the suggestion.
                        I do have some electrical knowledge, good engineering skills, but a fear of high roof.

                        Also, before pulling this project off - I want to ensure I will actually benefit from it as opposed to make an investment and then realise it does not work as anticipated.
                        That was the very reason I am calling for anyone from northern states to share their findings.


                        Now, as for panels - there are I see dozens, maybe even hundreds of manufacturers.
                        Is there any way to tell which one is good? Many of them have similar specs. But the long term is not there.
                        Also, snow coverage - which ones would work better (melt snow, that is) in winter.


                        Thanks for all the replies.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by PLP View Post
                          I am not sure where you guys found that Net Metering in MI is not 1:1... as I cannot actually verify that. So far I see 1:1 (kWh for kWh) ratio.
                          FWIW, all I could find was a1:1 correspondence statement among the distributed generation features listed w/ the state of MI, but that was from 2018 and suggested things weren't final yet.

                          Who is your service provider ?

                          Have you contacted and asked them ? If not, best to get information from the horse's mouth.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by J.P.M. View Post

                            FWIW, all I could find was a1:1 correspondence statement among the distributed generation features listed w/ the state of MI, but that was from 2018 and suggested things weren't final yet.

                            Who is your service provider ?

                            Have you contacted and asked them ? If not, best to get information from the horse's mouth.
                            Consumers Energy.

                            https://www.consumersenergy.com/resi...y/net-metering

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by PLP View Post
                              I agree with you on the 1:1 correspondence, but still, have you contacted Consumer's energy and asked them ?

                              Comment

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