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  • SDGE plans questionl (DR-SES-G ending next month for me)

    The 5 year provision to my NEM 1.0 TOU plan (DR-SES-G) is ending next month (SDGE - north county San Diego). This means I won't be reaping the current benefits of the 11am to 6pm peak hours, as they are replacing plans with 4pm to 9pm peak hours.

    I was wondering if anyone living in SDGE area has any general plan recommendations they could share if in a similar position? I know each household's use is unique and so there is no one right answer, but I'm guessing we follow a pretty typical consumption pattern -
    • 4.6k system covers 110% of typical annual use, and 90% after charging Chevy Volt overnight (average 8 kwh/day).
    • Highest daily consumption time of day is 4 - 8pm
    The plan I've been on really maximized the Solar benefits with the 11-6pm peak harvest window. Now since they are shifting to the lame 4-9pm window, I wonder if any current TOU plan makes sense compared to the regular DR plan, where you hope to just stay in Tier 1 every month?

    I did find a TOU plan (EV-TOU-5) where they charge $16 a month to lower the overnight super peak costs to $.09, but I am hesitant to pay that re-occurring charge, since it will be there even on the few months that I'm a net producer.

    Any thoughts?

    Thanks!
    SolarEdge SE5000 + 16 x LG 295 N1C-G3

  • #2
    I thought all NEM 1.0 plans in California were grandfathered. That doesn't mean they can't change the rates and the hours like SCE and PG&E have done for my installations. Also in PG&E and SCE there are at least 2 TOU plans, one of which has a high fixed cost and another that has higher rates but lower fixed costs. Higher rates are a double edged sword, they are great for power you generate but not so good when you consume. One of the reasons I spent the money on a grid tied battery storage system is to give me a hedge against these changes in the times when my solar production was getting credited at higher rates. There are some knowledgeable people on this forum who are more familiar with the specifics of SDG&E rates.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Ampster View Post
      I thought all NEM 1.0 plans in California were grandfathered.
      Only if you don't change tariffs. I'm on tiered rates. If I switch to a different tariff, like T.O.U. or some subset tariff, all bets are off.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by haizman View Post
        The 5 year provision to my NEM 1.0 TOU plan (DR-SES-G) is ending next month (SDGE - north county San Diego). This means I won't be reaping the current benefits of the 11am to 6pm peak hours, as they are replacing plans with 4pm to 9pm peak hours.

        I was wondering if anyone living in SDGE area has any general plan recommendations they could share if in a similar position? I know each household's use is unique and so there is no one right answer, but I'm guessing we follow a pretty typical consumption pattern -
        • 4.6k system covers 110% of typical annual use, and 90% after charging Chevy Volt overnight (average 8 kwh/day).
        • Highest daily consumption time of day is 4 - 8pm
        The plan I've been on really maximized the Solar benefits with the 11-6pm peak harvest window. Now since they are shifting to the lame 4-9pm window, I wonder if any current TOU plan makes sense compared to the regular DR plan, where you hope to just stay in Tier 1 every month?

        I did find a TOU plan (EV-TOU-5) where they charge $16 a month to lower the overnight super peak costs to $.09, but I am hesitant to pay that re-occurring charge, since it will be there even on the few months that I'm a net producer.

        Any thoughts?

        Thanks!
        That's the deal on grandfathering. It's ending for you and others who got P.T.O. (permission to operate) the same time you did. Grandfathering period is 5 yrs. from system PTO, not 5 yrs. from when the new T.O.U. times took effect.

        If you stay on DR-SES, expect that the system on your roof will produce about 20-25 % less revenue in terms of bill offset with the new times than under the old times.

        At your usage, going back to tiered schedule DR will result in few, if any, billing periods when you will be in tier one.

        I'm confused about what you write for usage. A mostly south facing, mostly shade free system in n.county S.D. will produce about 1,700 kWh/yr. per installed STC kW.

        So, 4.6 kW* 1,700 kWh/yr. = 7,820 kWh/yr. annual production for your system. If that's 110% of non EV charging usage, then your annual usage will be ~ 7,820 kWh/yr./1.1 = 7,109 kWh/yr.

        But if that 7,820 kWh/yr is 90% of total use including EV charging, then that total use will be 7,820 kWh/yr /0.9 ~ 8,689 kWh/yr. which means EV charging ~ 8,689 - 7,109 = ~ 1,580 kWh/yr. which is ~4.3 kWh/day, not 8 kWh/day.

        How many kWh/year do you consume ? Not what you get billed for - and not how much the bill is in $$, but how much does your system produce and how much do you then draw from SDG & E ? The sum of those two numbers will be your total usage. Tell me that, which climate zone you're in, and whether or not you have nat. gas service and I'll give you a pretty hard est. of what your current annual bill will be using current rates if you switch to schedule DR. Give me your zip and array orientation (azimuth and tilt) and some SWAG at shading and my est. will be better. Compare that est. to your current DR-SES bill and proceed as you wish.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by J.P.M. View Post
          How many kWh/year do you consume ? Not what you get billed for - and not how much the bill is in $$, but how much does your system produce and how much do you then draw from SDG & E ? The sum of those two numbers will be your total usage. Tell me that, which climate zone you're in, and whether or not you have nat. gas service and I'll give you a pretty hard est. of what your current annual bill will be using current rates if you switch to schedule DR. Give me your zip and array orientation (azimuth and tilt) and some SWAG at shading and my est. will be better. Compare that est. to your current DR-SES bill and proceed as you wish.
          JPM -

          Thank you for providing the details needed for a fair comparison between the plans! I don't know if I can intelligently answer everything at the moment, but I will work towards finding these variables. It appears that most of the SDG&E plans require a 1-year commitment, so I'm taking care with the selection.
          I just remembered I forgot about the EV car credit I received the last few years. I will also have to factor in to get reliable numbers, or remove to establish baseline usage.

          SolarEdge SE5000 + 16 x LG 295 N1C-G3

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by J.P.M. View Post

            Only if you don't change tariffs. I'm on tiered rates. If I switch to a different tariff, like T.O.U. or some subset tariff, all bets are off.
            Yes, I misunderstood the original posters comment. I thought he said he was losing NEM 1.0 all together. He is losing the tariff (rate plan) but the element of NEM compensation has been grandfathered. He will still be credited for generation at the tariff that he chooses. Unlike NEM 2.0, he will not be subject to non bybassable charges for what he consumes.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by haizman View Post

              JPM -

              Thank you for providing the details needed for a fair comparison between the plans! I don't know if I can intelligently answer everything at the moment, but I will work towards finding these variables. It appears that most of the SDG&E plans require a 1-year commitment, so I'm taking care with the selection.
              I just remembered I forgot about the EV car credit I received the last few years. I will also have to factor in to get reliable numbers, or remove to establish baseline usage.
              You're welcome. Suggest you read/review and get familiar with the SDG & E NEM tariff agreements and DR-SES and DR rate sheets before you commit.

              One piece of information you may find helpful but not in any of the SDG & E info is that at current rates and times on DR-SES and using PVWatts and hourly data for Miramar MCAS, a mostly south facing, 20 or so deg. tilt, and mostly unshaded array will produce about 1,700 kWh/yr. per installed STC kW of PV in n. county. Bottom line using PVWatts hourly output and a spreadsheet w/the DR-SES hourly rates on it is that the production from such an arrangement is currently worth ~ $450/installed STC kW to offset a bill.

              Add: Using the current grandfathered rates and times, the same generation is worth ~ $540/installed STC kW per yr. to offset a bill, or ~ 20 % more, even though the summer on peak rate is ~ $0.10 less for the grandfathered rate than for the new (non grandfathered ) rates.

              So, a 4.6 kW array in something like that orientation will off set ~ (4.6 kW)*($450/kW per year) ~ $2,070/yr. of your electric bill. You can then spend that to offset your electric bill with any hourly usage quantity/pattern of your choosing. As an example only, use all your elec. at super off peak rate (~ $0.2265/kWh) and you'll be able to use a lot more electricity than if all your use is at peak summer rate ($0.52899/kWh). The choice is yours on how much and when you use the power. The weather and the system will dictate how much you generate to offset that usage.

              FWIW, my usage is similar to what looks like your non EV usage, and I intend to stay on tiered rates until an EV comes along that meets my criteria. The way things are now, I and other tiered rate users will, at some point need to "positively elect" to stay on tiered rates. I expect that means I'll need to send SDG & E written intent to stay on tiered rates or they'll switch me to DR-SES.
              Last edited by J.P.M.; 12-01-2018, 11:59 AM. Reason: Added grandfathered generation value per installed STC kW for comparison to non grandfathered value.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by J.P.M. View Post
                ................
                FWIW, my usage is similar to what looks like your non EV usage, and I intend to stay on tiered rates until an EV comes along that meets my criteria. The way things are now, I and other tiered rate users will, at some point need to "positively elect" to stay on tiered rates. I expect that means I'll need to send SDG & E written intent to stay on tiered rates or they'll switch me to DR-SES.
                It is my understanding that the California Energy Comission has determined that tiered rates will be phased out in favor of TOU rates. This is statewide policy but each utility will have it's own implementation.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Ampster View Post

                  It is my understanding that the California Energy Comission has determined that tiered rates will be phased out in favor of TOU rates. This is statewide policy but each utility will have it's own implementation.
                  Based on what I have read concerning TOU rates it seems a shame that the CA POCO's use intimidation and penalties to get people to use less power.

                  I would think that people would want to help the state reduce their electric usage if they were just asked to. Or am I thinking CA people don't really care and must be penalized to reduce consumption.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Ampster View Post

                    It is my understanding that the California Energy Comission has determined that tiered rates will be phased out in favor of TOU rates. This is statewide policy but each utility will have it's own implementation.
                    That is mostly correct, but there's more to the story.

                    The timing, implementation and mechanics are yet to be worked out. At this time it's an intent and not a mandate on the part of the CPUC. The I.O.U's have largely been given the (implied) ability to implement it as they see best, and that probably means with as much control as possible and in such a way so as to improve/maximize profitability/shareholder return.

                    I'd still guess that tiered rates, at least on a residential scale, will be with us for some time to come and in some form.

                    Currently, about 15% or so of SDG & E's ~ 10^6 residential accounts are on some form of T.O.U. billing. As perhaps some indication of the public's awareness and voluntary acceptance of T.O.U. it may be interesting or constructive to note that the number of residential accounts changing over from tiered rates to T.O.U. rates is at a rate of ~ 1,000 accounts/month. Unless the great unwashed and mostly unaware masses are cattle prodded or simply changed into a T.O.U. tariff, that lethargic implementation will mean tiered rates will be here for a while.

                    The mandatory opt out of the automatic T.O.U. billing requirement changeover for residential customers, when/if it happens, will probably speed the implementation of residential T.O.U. with associated anger/angst from surprised ratepayers who may never quite grasp the ways or even the need to game the T.O.U. system in terms of WHEN power is used.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by SunEagle View Post

                      Based on what I have read concerning TOU rates it seems a shame that the CA POCO's use intimidation and penalties to get people to use less power.

                      I would think that people would want to help the state reduce their electric usage if they were just asked to. Or am I thinking CA people don't really care and must be penalized to reduce consumption.
                      My understanding of the intent of the policy makers is to provide financial incentives for shifting loads to times when there is plenty of capacity. The flip side of course is there are financial penalties for consumption when the grid is stressed. There are some voluntary programs like Ohm Connect that have been sucessful.. You are correct, many people have shifted their loads when they have become aware of the stress on the grid. As you also point out many more are either oblivious or don't care.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by SunEagle View Post

                        Based on what I have read concerning TOU rates it seems a shame that the CA POCO's use intimidation and penalties to get people to use less power.

                        I would think that people would want to help the state reduce their electric usage if they were just asked to. Or am I thinking CA people don't really care and must be penalized to reduce consumption.
                        The somewhat cynical way to see the approach as you state it is probably, and not only the effective way, but the only way that'll work. Sometimes the only way to convince folks to do what is overwhelmingly obviously the best thing for them is to take the draconian way and hit'em in the wallet.

                        Anyway, in some opinions, things around here are probably not as bad as a lot of whiners and financially overextended crybabies would like others to believe. But IMO only, most folks around here don't/won't make any choices, simply doing the lemming thing and then repeat the last thing they hear or see on dumfux news, and simply bitch and do little else.

                        Rant mode off.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Ampster View Post

                          My understanding of the intent of the policy makers is to provide financial incentives for shifting loads to times when there is plenty of capacity. The flip side of course is there are financial penalties for consumption when the grid is stressed. There are some voluntary programs like Ohm Connect that have been sucessful.. You are correct, many people have shifted their loads when they have become aware of the stress on the grid. As you also point out many more are either oblivious or don't care.
                          IMO making people aware of the need to reduce electrical consumption has always been a win win action. Unfortunately some people need more then logical information to make a change.

                          The carrot or the stick method has worked for centuries. But lately I see some POCO's painting a stick orange and calling it a carrot.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Hi, Im new to the forum and couldnt find a link to open a new topic. Im using this topic since its somewhat close to what Im looking for.
                            I currently have the Standard DR plan and SDGE is moving me to TOU-DR1 plan from Mar 6. I also have an EV car from few months, but only planning to charge at home occasionally.
                            Im trying to install PV sometime end of this Feb. I see lot of changes happened last couple of years on the TOU plans. I have multiple basic questions below, could you pls help guide me on these?

                            1. Can I grandfather any better tier-based plan at this moment (before SDGE moves me to TOU plan)?
                            2. Once I have the PTO for solar, can I still choose between EV-TOU vs DR-SES vs TOU-DR plans? Which one would pay better in winter & summer?

                            The TOU-DR plans seem to be confusing with both the TOU (timed) and baseline (tiered). But TOU-DR1 seems better from what I see.
                            EV-TOU-5 plan seems better only if I charge the car very often. If not, then EV-TOU-2 seems better.
                            DR-SES seems having high rate for all time periods - On-peak, Off-peak, Super-Off-peak.

                            Thanks!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by jatin495 View Post
                              Hi, Im new to the forum and couldnt find a link to open a new topic. Im using this topic since its somewhat close to what Im looking for.
                              I currently have the Standard DR plan and SDGE is moving me to TOU-DR1 plan from Mar 6. I also have an EV car from few months, but only planning to charge at home occasionally.
                              Im trying to install PV sometime end of this Feb. I see lot of changes happened last couple of years on the TOU plans. I have multiple basic questions below, could you pls help guide me on these?

                              1. Can I grandfather any better tier-based plan at this moment (before SDGE moves me to TOU plan)?.........!
                              No, I do not believe you can lock in a rate for perpetuity. The rates are approved by the California Public Utilities Commission and are subject to change. Their recent trend is toward TOU rates and within that the trend is to shift Peak Periods. As an example, I have had a commercial TOU rate on some investment property. SCE recently shifted the lowest rate to a time when those properties use very little electricity. I can do very little load shifting at those properties.

                              I am not as familiar with SDG&E specific rate plans and others may be better able to answer you question regarding which rates you should chose. The question may boil down to how much load shifting you can do, especially if you go on the EV rate. Then at least you have some assumptions about consumption that you can plug into a spread sheet to do the analysis. On my residence I have electric water heaters that I run during the lowest rate period and we shift electric dryer loads to lowest rate period. Further changes in the rates may mean that I might offset those loads with production from solar which currently gets stored with SCE at high rates. That may change.
                              Last edited by Ampster; 02-11-2019, 08:09 PM.

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