Florida Power & Light Tier 2 liability insurance and COG-1 rates

[lensman]

Hi all,

I've been lurking here for over a year but this is my first post.

We live in South Florida and have been considering putting in residential solar for over a year now, but we've been waiting until after we got our new roof. We have the new roof now.

I've been trying to decide how much capacity to put in and came across the fact that Florida Power & Light may require us to have $1 million in liability insurance if we put in a system bigger than 10 kW. After looking at our electric bills over the past year, I'm estimating that 12kW would generate about 17,000 kWh annually and cover 80% of our usage. We've already put in new windows, new variable speed pool pump, LED lights everywhere, and replaced our plasma TVs. The only things we have to do more are to replace our attic insulation, get new ducts, and rebalance the duct system (back bedrooms don't get enough AC, so the den is always freezing). Oh, and our water heater and clothes dryer are gas.

Anyway, my two questions are:
1. Does anyone have any experience with getting the $1 million is liability coverage required as a tier-2 generator? How much does it cost you?
2. Does anyone have any practical experience with what COG-1 reimbursement rates have been for FPL? This is the average cost of generation that FPL reimburses you if you generate more power in a year than you use. (Note: Under net metering your excess monthly generation just appears as a credit on next month's bill)

Thanks all. Looking forward to joining your ranks soon.

-lensman

[solar pete]

Howdy lensman and welcome to Solar Panel Talk.

As I do solar in Oz I cant really help you except to say if you do a search here you might find some posts that talk about it. One of the SolarReviews.com guys told me the other day they have just gone through all the states again so the www.solarreviews.com site might have some info if you search by state. Someone from your neck of the woods might chime in with some local knowledge, cheers.

[ButchDeal]

check your homeowners policy, you might already have it. It is not that much to add it.

[J.P.M.]

Not responding to your questions so ignore this as you please, but a question: After all those conservation efforts, why is your usage so high ?

[lensman]

Not responding to your questions so ignore this as you please, but a question: After all those conservation efforts, why is your usage so high ?

This is a great question. We still haven't found a great solution for doing detailed monitoring of our usage due to installation issues with our outside breaker box, but here's my current estimates:
1. Always on: 1 kW -> 720 kWh per month ($86 per month)
2. Variable speed pool pump: part of #1, but 230 watts or 160 kWh per month ($20 a month)
3. Summer AC: 900 kWh per month ($108 per month Jun-Oct)
4. Shoulder AC: 300 kWh per month ($36 per month May, Nov)
5. Various TVs ($10 per month)
6. Washer/Dryer ($10 per month) for 3 loads per day
7. Range ($10 per month) 1 hour per day
8. Other: 450 kWh per month ($54 per month)

I'm very interested in comparisons with other households because I think our usage is high but my wife, of course, thinks our usage is normal and complains that I'm obsessed with our electric bill.

[bcroe]

No pool pump here, but the goal has always been to reduce waste, not cut back on creature comforts.
My phantom loads (continuous draw with everything off, HVAC and fridge not running) were 300W
after moving here. Some 2600 KWH a year. A couple years chasing these on some 60 circuits accounted
for them in a hundred small ways. A KILL-A WATT meter and other tools put numbers on everything.
After replacing,redesigning, modifying, or turning off, this was reduce to 60 watts. The starting point
must be putting numbers on the guilty parties. Fixes, I used quite a few methods.

After that it was 5000KWH a year, less than 10 KWH a day when the furnace or air cond didn't run. Bruce Roe

[J.P.M.]

This is a great question. We still haven't found a great solution for doing detailed monitoring of our usage due to installation issues with our outside breaker box, but here's my current estimates:
1. Always on: 1 kW -> 720 kWh per month ($86 per month)
2. Variable speed pool pump: part of #1, but 230 watts or 160 kWh per month ($20 a month)
3. Summer AC: 900 kWh per month ($108 per month Jun-Oct)
4. Shoulder AC: 300 kWh per month ($36 per month May, Nov)
5. Various TVs ($10 per month)
6. Washer/Dryer ($10 per month) for 3 loads per day
7. Range ($10 per month) 1 hour per day
8. Other: 450 kWh per month ($54 per month)

I'm very interested in comparisons with other households because I think our usage is high but my wife, of course, thinks our usage is normal and complains that I'm obsessed with our electric bill.

I've been in my home 10+ years. 3,250 ft.^2, built 1982. Zip 92026. warm/hot summers.

Average daily use since moving in: 18.503 kWh/day = ~ 6,750 kWh/yr. inclusive of all loads.
Biggest annual draws:
A/C = 995 kWh/yr. Last 4 years ~ 1,100 kWh/yr. average. The 5 ton unit draws 6 kW including ~ 0.8kw for the air handler. Ave. COP exclusive of blower load ~ 3.4.
26 ft.^3 fridge ave. = 760 kWh/yr.
Clothes drying (electric) 610 kWh/yr.
The pump for the solar water heater takes an ave. of ~ 152 kWh/yr.
The furnace air handler takes ave. 105 kWh/yr.
Phantom/fixed loads amount to something close to 250-260 kWh/yr. Best guess ~ 30 W ave. and I think I know where some of those watts go.

A lot of the rest of the 6,750 kWh/yr., or something like 3,800-3,900 kWh/yr. gets used for :
Lights
Fans for circulating cool air at night to cool the house down in summer.
2 desktop computers.
Somewhere in the neighborhood of ~ 125 - 150 kWh/yr. for electric H2O heating that the solar water heater does not supply. The solar fraction for the solar water heater is ~~ 0.95 or so. SWMBO watches a couple of cop shows. I watch WWII reruns on the Hitler channel 1X/awhile. Otherwise, not much boob tube. Maybe 20 hrs./mo.

[frankge]

I'm with Duke in Tampa but its "mostly" regulated by the PSC. If you are with Citizens you have to look for the liability insurance elsewhere. COG paid annually will be ~.065/Kwh with my net-metering rate of ~.13/Kwh. I haven't gone a year yet so we'll see. I stayed Tier 1 with a SE10000H and 11.31Kw system. At 12 Kwh system is it worth it to go Tier 2? Theres the liability insurance, an application fee, and FPL will give you a lot more scrutiny vs Tier 1... With slight over-sizing I get more production during the "edge" periods with minor clipping at times. My average production is 40-50Kwh/day with really good days of 60Kwh.

Not an advertisement but I installed a Sense Energy Monitor and it gives pretty good detail on what's using how much and when. I did add a Wattnode to my SE monitoring for 50 bucks off Ebay and it rounds out the SE monitoring for consumption but doesn't give device detail.

[lensman]

I'm with Duke in Tampa but its "mostly" regulated by the PSC. If you are with Citizens you have to look for the liability insurance elsewhere. COG paid annually will be ~.065/Kwh with my net-metering rate of ~.13/Kwh. I haven't gone a year yet so we'll see. I stayed Tier 1 with a SE10000H and 11.31Kw system. At 12 Kwh system is it worth it to go Tier 2? Theres the liability insurance, an application fee, and FPL will give you a lot more scrutiny vs Tier 1... With slight over-sizing I get more production during the "edge" periods with minor clipping at times. My average production is 40-50Kwh/day with really good days of 60Kwh.

This is an excellent point, frankge. What are the benefits of having a 11.31 Kw system and a 10 KW inverter? Or are you just suggesting that I get a 10 KW system? Very interested in the specifics of your advice.

I was also thinking of pushing up to a 15 kW system because we're planning on getting an EV, but I'm not sure whether it makes sense to do that.

Not an advertisement but I installed a Sense Energy Monitor and it gives pretty good detail on what's using how much and when. I did add a Wattnode to my SE monitoring for 50 bucks off Ebay and it rounds out the SE monitoring for consumption but doesn't give device detail.

Been considering a Sense for about a year but I"m still noodling about how to best install it since our main panel is outside.

What does the Wattnode give you that the Sense doesn't?

I'm also super-interested in your electrical usage in Tampa. I can't figure out whether our AC usage is too high or if there's some other big consumer of electricity. My 1000 watt "always on" figure seems high and my "other" figure of 450 kWh per month also seems high.

One thought is to get a 10 kW (Tier 1) system and then to continue to work on conservation.

[frankge]

This is an excellent point, frankge. What are the benefits of having a 11.31 Kw system and a 10 KW inverter? Or are you just suggesting that I get a 10 KW system? Very interested in the specifics of your advice.

The benefits are you can maximize your edge or lower light periods while giving up some minor clipping at the height of the day. Also, as the system degrades over the 25 yr warranty period I'll still end up with a 10kw system. HDWave inverters can be oversized by 155%. Most inverters have a "sweet spot" of efficiency which is in their upper capacity range.

I was also thinking of pushing up to a 15 kW system because we're planning on getting an EV, but I'm not sure whether it makes sense to do that.

If you build it and don't get one its not very cost effective.

Been considering a Sense for about a year but I"m still noodling about how to best install it since our main panel is outside.

It is wireless

What does the Wattnode give you that the Sense doesn't?

Rounds out and a much more seamless monitoring experience. Sense is kludgey for pure solar monitoring but its great for device and power meter details.

I'm also super-interested in your electrical usage in Tampa. I can't figure out whether our AC usage is too high or if there's some other big consumer of electricity. My 1000 watt "always on" figure seems high and my "other" figure of 450 kWh per month also seems high.

I've downsized to a 1800sqft home and I was using 275-285 on the budget plan per month, I upgraded my heatpump and now about 245 - its hot here!

One thought is to get a 10 kW (Tier 1) system and then to continue to work on conservation.

You can always bang it out if you need more later

[lensman]

What are the benefits of having a 11.31 Kw system and a 10 KW inverter? Or are you just suggesting that I get a 10 KW system? Very interested in the specifics of your advice.

The benefits are you can maximize your edge or lower light periods while giving up some minor clipping at the height of the day. Also, as the system degrades over the 25 yr warranty period I'll still end up with a 10kw system. HDWave inverters can be oversized by 155%. Most inverters have a "sweet spot" of efficiency which is in their upper capacity range.

That's brilliant! Is a simulator available that will model the output of such a system? I'm wondering how much you're predicted to lose if you get a 10 kW inverter and 12 kW panels. Actually, I've just noticed that FPL's definition of 10 kW for a Tier 1 category is the DC array output times 0.85, so I can get up to 11,76 kW DC in panels and whatever inverter I want. In this case do you still suggest undersizing my inverter to 10 kW? Or should I just go with the 11.4 kW one?

I was also thinking of pushing up to a 15 kW system because we're planning on getting an EV, but I'm not sure whether it makes sense to do that.

If you build it and don't get one its not very cost effective.

Yeah, you're right, at the sellback rate of $0.065 per kWh I'd have negative IRR on the extra panels. It really does point out that in what seems like a "best case" of net metering + reimbursement for annual excess at COG rates, it doesn't pay to oversize.

Been considering a Sense for about a year but I'm still noodling about how to best install it since our main panel is outside.

It is wireless

I was wondering how to safely mount the antenna. I installed Sense at our second home with an inside panel so I just punched out a knockout on the side and mounted the antenna there like the instructions say. I was wondering if it would be up to code to have the antenna sticking out of a bottom knockout? I'm kinda assuming the panel serves as a faraday cage so having the antenna inside won't work.

I've downsized to a 1800sqft home and I was using 275-285 on the budget plan per month, I upgraded my heatpump and now about 245 - its hot here!

Is that $245 per month? If so that's comparable to our house in Pembroke Pines is 1700 sf and our average bill would be $225 a month - $300 in the summer and $150 in the winter.

One thought is to get a 10 kW (Tier 1) system and then to continue to work on conservation.

You can always bang it out if you need more later

Yeah, that's probably the smartest choice. Thanks!

BTW, we're with UPC Insurance, not Citizens. We are thinking of trying to get back on Citizens this year. Had roof straps put in and some other work that I think will qualify us for coverage. Do you know of any good homeowner communities for general information like that?

Finally, did you give any thought to battery backup power? Our power was out for a week after Irma and I don't want to deal with a gasoline powered generator ever again.

[frankge]

PVWatts is probably the best simulator to use - do a search lots of info on how to use. I couldn't tell you what to get without running something in PVWatts; I'd recommend doing that. The antenna extending outside the service panel should be ok, you have to validate with your building dept. It was at $245.00 but now I'm net metered and down to a $40.00 electric bill. Should be just the service charge of 8 bucks into next year. IMO Batteries are not needed with net-metering which is really the best battery there is! I have a portable generator with an interlock to my panel. We rarely lose power - hurricane last year was 4 days - after that I went with the interlock because all those wires are a PIA.