Inverter Upsize Help

[nomadh]

Before you insulate, spend a few bucks on caulking and sealing devices, and a few hours paying some careful attention to details of were surfaces are supposed to, but don't quite meet. Seal before adding insulation. More bang for the buck.

BTW, seal the warm (cld) side of unheated spaces. For example, if an attic/crawal space is uninsulated, and intended to stay that way, first seal the ceiling in the area(s) below the uninsulated space (and REALLY seal it), and then insulate the interface between heated and unheated space. Sealing is necessary not only to reduce in/exfiltration losses/gains, but equally importantly (mostly for colder climates) to reduce the effects of condensation damage which is often not even known much less considered.

I am so torn on this. IF it weren't for wanting to do this "right" I would have added 10 inches of cellulose insulation 2 years ago and been way ahead of my 1960's 3" of attic fiberglass batting. I know I do have some leakage just because I can smell it when I kick on the whole house fan in the attic. I tripled the venting in the attic but it still leaks back some. I'd love to have the house or attic "sealed" but the costs are high. And I don't blame them. I could certainly do it but I truly can't think of a more horrible miserable job. I'll dig ditches in the sun, shovel manure or clean a septic tank but thinking of sweating up there with the dust and fiberglass and nail intrusions just puts me in a pre ptsd situation.
So my question is, in a very whine-y voice, won't the cellulose block the air enough to get me 85+% of what I need? Can I just put in another 2" of insulation and make up for it? How about a nice heavy blanket or tarp on top of the 10 inches plus 2 inches?
What can I do to skip that expensive horrible job?
You say a few hours work but I estimate a pro would take 10+ hours and I'd probably need 20+ the ceiling repairs where I stepped through. I'm in a tri level with 2 roof lines, the bottom floor is mostly cinder block half sunken. The floor above is wood frame, wood siding and plaster interior. And the middle room is a stucco ext, stick built raised foundation with a crawl space that can have a stream and be moist through winter.

[J.P.M.]

I am so torn on this. IF it weren't for wanting to do this "right" I would have added 10 inches of cellulose insulation 2 years ago and been way ahead of my 1960's 3" of attic fiberglass batting. I know I do have some leakage just because I can smell it when I kick on the whole house fan in the attic. I tripled the venting in the attic but it still leaks back some. I'd love to have the house or attic "sealed" but the costs are high. And I don't blame them. I could certainly do it but I truly can't think of a more horrible miserable job. I'll dig ditches in the sun, shovel manure or clean a septic tank but thinking of sweating up there with the dust and fiberglass and nail intrusions just puts me in a pre ptsd situation.
So my question is, in a very whine-y voice, won't the cellulose block the air enough to get me 85+% of what I need? Can I just put in another 2" of insulation and make up for it? How about a nice heavy blanket or tarp on top of the 10 inches plus 2 inches?
What can I do to skip that expensive horrible job?
You say a few hours work but I estimate a pro would take 10+ hours and I'd probably need 20+ the ceiling repairs where I stepped through. I'm in a tri level with 2 roof lines, the bottom floor is mostly cinder block half sunken. The floor above is wood frame, wood siding and plaster interior. And the middle room is a stucco ext, stick built raised foundation with a crawl space that can have a stream and be moist through winter.

Whine all you want but that won't change reality. The short and unequivocal answer to your question is no. Full stop.

Loose fill or insulation is like a sponge only more porous. It is not in any way a moisture barrier. Never. Disabuse yourself of that notion. And, furthermore, as it absorbs moisture - which it will - and readily, it not only looses most of its insulation qualities, but, if it gets really moisture laden, and again, just like a sponge, it will weep water.

And, from how you write of your dislike for sealing in unfriendly climates, to make matters worse, sealing and caulking is a job where attention to detail is an absolute necessity to an absolutely necessary task. Don't shoot me, I'm only the piano player. Curse the wind.

Do NOT put a tarp over existing insulation. That's about the worst thing you can do and a formula for disaster.

You need to educate yourself on how and where moisture problems come from and how to avoid those problems. There are things you are not aware of.

As far as doing it right, with respect to insulation, not sealing before insulation will, at the least, make the insulation less effective as it absorbs moisture, or worse and likely over time, make it less than useless and perhaps cause damage or mold, especially in places that have a heating season.

One thing you write makes me wonder: It reads to me like you can smell the attic when you turn on the whole house fan. If so, something's not right. That tells me that the fan is pressurizing the attic relative to the living space. That would lead me to believe that air is not being exhausted properly from the attic when the fan is running. So I wonder: How is the whole house fan vented ? And/Or/Also, when the fan is running, the air that's being pulled from the living space by the fan needs to be replaced by outside (cooler) air. That means an open window or some path for cooler outside air to be introduced to the living space.

[nomadh]

Whine all you want but that won't change reality. The short and unequivocal answer to your question is no. Full stop.

Loose fill or insulation is like a sponge only more porous. It is not in any way a moisture barrier. Never. Disabuse yourself of that notion. And, furthermore, as it absorbs moisture - which it will - and readily, it not only looses most of its insulation qualities, but, if it gets really moisture laden, and again, just like a sponge, it will weep water.

And, from how you write of your dislike for sealing in unfriendly climates, to make matters worse, sealing and caulking is a job where attention to detail is an absolute necessity to an absolutely necessary task. Don't shoot me, I'm only the piano player. Curse the wind.

Do NOT put a tarp over existing insulation. That's about the worst thing you can do and a formula for disaster.

You need to educate yourself on how and where moisture problems come from and how to avoid those problems. There are things you are not aware of.

As far as doing it right, with respect to insulation, not sealing before insulation will, at the least, make the insulation less effective as it absorbs moisture, or worse and likely over time, make it less than useless and perhaps cause damage or mold, especially in places that have a heating season.

One thing you write makes me wonder: It reads to me like you can smell the attic when you turn on the whole house fan. If so, something's not right. That tells me that the fan is pressurizing the attic relative to the living space. That would lead me to believe that air is not being exhausted properly from the attic when the fan is running. So I wonder: How is the whole house fan vented ? And/Or/Also, when the fan is running, the air that's being pulled from the living space by the fan needs to be replaced by outside (cooler) air. That means an open window or some path for cooler outside air to be introduced to the living space.

I clicked like even though don't really like your answer I do thank you for you answer and respect it. You talk about moisture like its a certainty. I dont know of any moisture up in my attic. Was you comment more generic to any house or because I mentioned the moisture under. My moisture problem can be at the bottom of the house. I've never found any hint of moisture in the attic. No bathroom vents to it or problems like that. I dont think I have enough leakage that showers and breathing vapors ever condense in the attic. Should I still be so worried about moisture up there? I'd guess its many times more likely a roof leak someday would get me. If the cellulose is that easily wrecked then I kind of wonder if its worth bothering at all.
My whole house fan is mounted in the hallway ceiling and a bit over powered it seems. I have 2 original std size gable vents and an added bigger air pressure activated gable vent. If I run the fan on low I get very little of the attic air slipping back into the house with the added venting but that does show I have some leakage but only noticeable under fairly extreme air pressurization. I only run it with doors or windows open.
I'm asking because I've had 2 out of 3 insulation guys that do offer air sealing suggest it isn't worth the expense. Funny since they offer it. If it was worthwhile the only angle I could figure is it is so expensive and they make so little on the job to make it palatable to the consumer they just want to skip it and do the easy job of pumping insulation.

[J.P.M.]

I clicked like even though don't really like your answer I do thank you for you answer and respect it. You talk about moisture like its a certainty. I dont know of any moisture up in my attic. Was you comment more generic to any house or because I mentioned the moisture under. My moisture problem can be at the bottom of the house. I've never found any hint of moisture in the attic. No bathroom vents to it or problems like that. I dont think I have enough leakage that showers and breathing vapors ever condense in the attic. Should I still be so worried about moisture up there? I'd guess its many times more likely a roof leak someday would get me. If the cellulose is that easily wrecked then I kind of wonder if its worth bothering at all.
My whole house fan is mounted in the hallway ceiling and a bit over powered it seems. I have 2 original std size gable vents and an added bigger air pressure activated gable vent. If I run the fan on low I get very little of the attic air slipping back into the house with the added venting but that does show I have some leakage but only noticeable under fairly extreme air pressurization. I only run it with doors or windows open.
I'm asking because I've had 2 out of 3 insulation guys that do offer air sealing suggest it isn't worth the expense. Funny since they offer it. If it was worthwhile the only angle I could figure is it is so expensive and they make so little on the job to make it palatable to the consumer they just want to skip it and do the easy job of pumping insulation.

You're welcome. Thank you for the candor. Much better and easier to deal with than dealing with the usual childlike bruised feelings caused by thin skins and entitled attitudes.

I didn't expect you'd like my response, but that matters not one whit. It's about information exchange - it ain't a popularity contest. Do as you please with the information. Not my house, money, comfort, business, life, whatever.

FWIW, or not, my information in these subjects is pretty much accepted as common and generally good and accurate advice in the engineering world when it comes to keeping homeowners out of long term trouble with respect to indoor air quality and moisture control, and how to reduce the probability of damage to property - a lot of which is or will be unseen. I've picked it up over 40+ years of education and experience with respect to HVAC systems, keeping indoor air quality healthy and keeping homes from rotting around their owners.

You need an education with respect to atmospheric water vapor, its invisibility and how it can condense to a liquid when it's exposed to a temp. below the dew point in areas where air circulation is or can be restricted to less than free air movement.

[nomadh]

You're welcome. Thank you for the candor. Much better and easier to deal with than dealing with the usual childlike bruised feelings caused by thin skins and entitled attitudes.

I didn't expect you'd like my response, but that matters not one whit. It's about information exchange - it ain't a popularity contest. Do as you please with the information. Not my house, money, comfort, business, life, whatever.

FWIW, or not, my information in these subjects is pretty much accepted as common and generally good and accurate advice in the engineering world when it comes to keeping homeowners out of long term trouble with respect to indoor air quality and moisture control, and how to reduce the probability of damage to property - a lot of which is or will be unseen. I've picked it up over 40+ years of education and experience with respect to HVAC systems, keeping indoor air quality healthy and keeping homes from rotting around their owners.

You need an education with respect to atmospheric water vapor, its invisibility and how it can condense to a liquid when it's exposed to a temp. below the dew point in areas where air circulation is or can be restricted to less than free air movement.

So basically it sounds like your opinion is that it is not really worth insulating or adding insulation without sealing? My mother in law got huge returns with her AC running perhaps 1/2 less time per day to hold the same temp and that set temp seemed still to be cooler and more comfortable. I do suspect her house is a tighter build to begin with being 1 level and built 10 to 15 years newer in the 70s. Should she be worried about future problems? I believe she got a special deal to add the insulation free from sdge for being elderly or on disability.

So if this is a necessary evil is there a cost effective way to use a sprayer with sealant? Maybe just move the bats to 1 side and spray away into all the headers and corners. Catch all the fixture and conduit openings. I suppose that expanding foam could work but is expensive. The plus to it is it has an additive R value? Any cheap way to do this? Should this be open cell or closed cell foam?
Also I've heard you can get the same outcome by sealing all holes down below in the room. Is that practical? Seal up every wall switch, electrical outlet and cable intrusion. Would you also need to do around every door jam and under every base board?
Thanks so much for taking the time to answer. Hopefully others are wondering some of the same crazy stuff and will also benefit.

[J.P.M.]

So basically it sounds like your opinion is that it is not really worth insulating or adding insulation without sealing? My mother in law got huge returns with her AC running perhaps 1/2 less time per day to hold the same temp and that set temp seemed still to be cooler and more comfortable. I do suspect her house is a tighter build to begin with being 1 level and built 10 to 15 years newer in the 70s. Should she be worried about future problems? I believe she got a special deal to add the insulation free from sdge for being elderly or on disability.

So if this is a necessary evil is there a cost effective way to use a sprayer with sealant? Maybe just move the bats to 1 side and spray away into all the headers and corners. Catch all the fixture and conduit openings. I suppose that expanding foam could work but is expensive. The plus to it is it has an additive R value? Any cheap way to do this? Should this be open cell or closed cell foam?
Also I've heard you can get the same outcome by sealing all holes down below in the room. Is that practical? Seal up every wall switch, electrical outlet and cable intrusion. Would you also need to do around every door jam and under every base board?
Thanks so much for taking the time to answer. Hopefully others are wondering some of the same crazy stuff and will also benefit.

Maybe you'd interpret what I wrote that way, but that's not what I'm trying to say.

Insulating without taking care to do the best possible job to try to ensure that moisture laden air cannot get to loose fill or fiberglass insulation or other products that can be harmed when that moisture laden air is cooled below its dew point and liquid water condenses out of that air and onto the surface of things that can be harmed my contact with liquid water can potentially cause harm. Will it happen quickly ? Maybe, but probably not. How long before moisture damage occurs ? Well, probably longer in Phoenix than Bangor or Chicago.

What I am saying, or attempting to convey, is the idea that the laws of physics and that portion of physics that deals with psychometric processes are pretty inviolate, and just because the effects may not be immediately apparent or have an immediate effect doesn't change those realities. Nor is that reality changed by those with money to make by providing incomplete and quick fixes that can cause more long term damage and take more $$ to remediate than reduction in heating/cooling loads can save.

Do you really think insulation contractors give as much as the south end of a northbound rat what happens to a dwelling years after they insulate it ? Caring is not how they make a living.

Over time, the returns on the insulation job your mother in law got - which I have no doubt were noticeable if not substantial - will diminish, particularly if its loose fill like blown cellulose (which BTW, and to make matters worse,is quite hygroscopic). Settling in horizontal insulation will reduce the insulation's thickness and create gaps at the top of vertical spaces, and collect moisture. Damage from that moisture, whether the moisture eventually dries out or not, will reduce the insulation's overall R value as its insulating value per unit thickness will also decrease. Then, there is the mold problem, completely separate from loss of insulating value. That's the real potential problem as a health risk. Might not happen for a long time, maybe longer than occupants will live in the dwelling. Maybe never. As a similar example of planning for small probability events: Maybe a 90 MPH wind will never hit my array. Probably not, but my and other arrays in my neighborhood will (hopefully) last through that unlikely event. Similar to wind design, or seismic design for such things as bridges, thinking and preparing for possible contingencies to avoid damage or physical harm like moisture damage to a dwelling or damage to lungs from mold when the laws of physics try to do what they want to do is the way I learned my engineering. Even without that, it simply seems like common sense.

Most of those methods you write of are actually things that ought to be done before insulating. I did most of those things and more on my first home in Buffalo in the mid '70's and every home since. I've also seen plenty of damage done by being unaware of moisture and improper/inadequate (that is not uncontrolled) ventilation in a dwelling.

Insulating a dwelling without consideration of tightening up a building's envelope and thinking about moisture control measures is shortsighted and in the long run has a higher probability of doing long term damage to property and health than most folks know. There are lots of measures beyond the scope of a simple post such as this one that are easy to do and pay not only long term benefits, but more immediate ones as well. The most obvious of the short term benefits is that, after simply turning stuff off, you will get the most immediate and cost effective return on investment by reducing in- or ex-filtration by sealing a building envelope. Sealing will pay immediate and provide noticeable reductions in bills. Depending on how old a dwelling is, it's size and shape, location and what kind of conservation standards it was built to, infiltration losses can amount to anywhere from about or something like 1/3 to well over half of the HVAC load. Reducing that portion of the load is something most anyone can do and it'll pay real benefits real soon. A caveat: While doing so, take care to make sure methods to remove moisture from places like bathrooms, kitchens, etc. are adequate. also, ventilate basements and crawlspaces as much as possible. Dehumidifiers are also an option, but an expensive one. Dehumidifiers are little more than (mini) air conditioners, and sometimes sometimes necessary, l but I'd suggest as a last resort and not the first.

When you seal, do it from the warm side. So, for example, in a cold climate, seal the interior walls from the inside, the sill plate, electrical outlets, window frames, etc. also from the warm side, and, "loosen up" the exterior wall surfaces. That is, make it easier for (usually) dry(er) outside air to get into an insulated space than for moist inside air to get into the same space. The logic: moist air interior will get to the insulation in smaller quantities and so there will be less condensation while (usually) dryer air that can and will get into the space from the exterior and past the looser exterior barrier (the exterior wall) more easily will get carried away sooner by the larger circulation rate of dryer outside air. I know, seems counter intuitive. In one sentence I'm saying make the envelope it tight and in the next I'm saying make it loose. Well, make the warm surface tight and the cold side loose(r). Just don't make it so loose that rain and the elements and also pests/bugs don't get in. For warmer, moister climates, still seal the warmer side. Just seal a bit tighter in New Orleans than Tucson. This is not an exact science, but there are ways, means and some guidance available. Google is again your friend.

The insulation doesn't care if it gets cold or warm, and tight hot side, loose cold side rules of thumb will still stop or more accurately at least slow air movement in building envelopes which is most of the real cause of most of the moisture problems in building envelopes - there's mean old mr. physics again forcing reality down our throats).

But, way off thread topic. Apologies to the OP.

[nomadh]

Well J.P.M. it is certainly going to be easier to air seal it before I pump insulation in if I were to ever do it. I did see there are kits with spray foam for about 700 to 900 $ that should do my whole attic floor. Plus add a few R value at the same time. Being able to stand for much of the job and get it in the eave area without crawling in there makes it more possible sounding. Also the spray foam will be perfect for insulating the walls of my skylights that go through the attic.
Do you suggest open or closed cell foam?
There is also a smaller kit for $100 hitting just the cracks but then I think to be that accurate its back to crawling around the edges again. Are those the 2 best basic DIY options in this case?

Thanks for all the advice. We did sort of derail the original post.

[J.P.M.]

Well J.P.M. it is certainly going to be easier to air seal it before I pump insulation in if I were to ever do it. I did see there are kits with spray foam for about 700 to 900 $ that should do my whole attic floor. Plus add a few R value at the same time. Being able to stand for much of the job and get it in the eave area without crawling in there makes it more possible sounding. Also the spray foam will be perfect for insulating the walls of my skylights that go through the attic.
Do you suggest open or closed cell foam?
There is also a smaller kit for $100 hitting just the cracks but then I think to be that accurate its back to crawling around the edges again. Are those the 2 best basic DIY options in this case?

Thanks for all the advice. We did sort of derail the original post.

You are welcome.

You seem to be still confused by the mostly incorrect notion that insulation is a vapor barrier. In spite of what you may think or have been encouraged to infer, IT IS NOT. After you do provide a vapor barrier (which is one of the two big reasons for "sealing" in the first place - the other is to provide a barrier against air in/ex filtration to slow down heat transfer. The two are related but not entirely the same. On paper anyway closed cell offers a nominally better "R" value than open cell. Perhaps that's where some of your confusion is coming from.

Also, over time, a lot of the closed cell foams tend to lose some of their high(er) "R" value as some of the closed cells lose their virginity and become open cells.

For large areas, blankets of spray foam are not a very effective vapor barrier. Sealing places/joints/corners/etc. where 2 surfaces (don't quite) meet can be done with spray cans of foam fairly effectively. Sometimes not pretty but effectively.

In general, all spray foams that wind up being rigid tend to shrink and the areas left bare act as parallel paths for heat transfer which can kill an insulated surface's effective "R" value.

Another point: When insulating (not sealing) on larger applications like entire wall cavities or horizontal attic/crawl spaces, when using spray foams, make sure the stuff has fire retardant added to it. Way back in the day, formulations of isocyanurate foam with high "R" values were known to release hydrogen cyanide when burned. I believe that's still the case. Some jurisdictions disallow the stuff for that reason. Other common spray foams like urea formaldehyde also tended to shrink and thus create gaps, and there was and may still be odor problems when improper mixing of urea formaldehyde has occurred. Think of a cat box that needs changing so badly it stings your eyes. All in all, spray foams, while they look promising, IMO only, are not the best answer.

Bite the bullet, read up on vapor barriers, why they are necessary and how to effectively apply them, have at it and be done with it.