Solaria panels worth a 20% premium?

[df0rster]

I've read some hype on Solaria panels being more efficient, especially for shading issues. If we don't have shading issues are they worth the 20% premium over say Peimar panels or some other off brand? There are some sales bringing the price a little lower on Solaria but still right at 20% more expensive.

One nice thing is that you can get a 60 cell panel size in a 320W panel so it would be easier to physically handle for the same power level, but that alone is not worth 20% to me.

[J.P.M.]

Short answer is no - probably not worth it.

Reason: Panels are a commodity.

As the claim of low light improvements in panel efficiency, if a panel is in shade, it cannot create more energy where little exists in the first place (like in shade).

Even if a panel is more efficient in shade (a somewhat dubious and hard to verify claim in the first place), a small efficiency improvement in collecting a very small initial amount of (in-shade)insolation is not worth much to begin with. Think about it: What's 2 % of 10 %, over, say, 20 % of possible sunlight hours for example.

Reality: Most efficiency claims are based on STC output per area. If so, such figures are pretty much useless as figures of economic merit. Unless the value of roof real estate is an economic figure of merit, panel efficiency is a specious parameter.

Know this: Most every array of equal (electrical)size, say, 5 STC kW for example, in the same location, orientation and duty using reasonable quality equipment that's professionally and competently installed will produce about the same annual output for as long or longer than you're likely to own it. Some arrays simply take a larger area to do the same job. Those that are physically larger (but of approx. equal electrical size) usually cost less up front.

Thus there is a generally inverse relation between cost effectiveness and panel efficiency when such efficiency is calculated on an area basis. Every, say 300 STC watt panel will produce will produce 300 STC watts on test. Some will have greater dimensions. Those larger panels will almost always cost less per STC watt than (physically) smaller panels. The (physically)smaller panels that cover less surface area will be more "efficient". They will also cost more up front per STC watt. That's it. Pay more for the same performance. Such a deal.

Bottom line on long term cost effectiveness: If the real end goal is to pay the least amount to provide electricity for an application (like providing safe, long term reliable electrical service to a residence) using the most long term cost effective mix of PV and grid supplied power, and the area where an array will be located is smaller than needed for a particular panel, a better and at least a very likely more cost effective solution is usually to use a smaller (electrical)size array that utilizes less (area) efficient panels (which usually cost less, in your example ~~ 20% ?). Then, the money saved by the combination of smaller (electrical size)array, and the lower cost/STC watt paid for less "efficient" panels can either be not spent, invested elsewhere, or used for various conservation improvements that will lower electrical bills and make up some, most of, all, or more than all the savings lost by the choice of a smaller (electrical) size array.

[TAZ427]

As JPM mentioned, you're getting back a little, on a little, on a little bit of time. You'd need to see what that actually is. But you're also losing effectiveness on this panel over time as well. Warranty is a 2.5 or 3% drop firs year and 0.7% or 0.68% every year thereafter for a 80% production at the end of 25yrs. Many others are 3% the first year and 0.3-0.5% every year there after, down to around 90% or 86% production at the end of 25yrs. That gain of likely < 1% a year in shading conditions is quickly eaten up in efficiency drop within a couple years.

If you really have extreme shading issues, then maybe you should look into what could mitigate those shading issues first, because 20% improvement of 10% output is only 2% of full sunlight output.

Quick bit of math, let's say it's 50% of the time you're in bad shading. That's 50% of the time you've got 0.12*sun light hours production -> 0.12*0.50*sun light hours + 0.50*sun light hours -> 0.506*full sun output for the year instead of 0.10*0.5*sun light hours + 0.50*sun light hours or 0.505*fsun light hours output total or a 0.2% gain in electricity production.

Start playing with the numbers of the amount of shading you're going to get, how much split the time up between shading and non shading, keep in mind production drops extremely low in most shading, I doubt you'll find them as economically appealing as what they make them sound. In fact, the exact opposite when you consider higher production drop over time.

[df0rster]

This is what I was thinking. I have no shading issues and am thinking to use dc optimizers so the shading advantage isn't as important in that case.

[J.P.M.]

This is what I was thinking. I have no shading issues and am thinking to use dc optimizers so the shading advantage isn't as important in that case.

If you have no shading, I'd wonder what any advantage of optimizers would be worth. If the NPV of any gain is < added cost, I'd consider skipping the optimizers or SolarEdge.

[df0rster]

If you have no shading, I'd wonder what any advantage of optimizers would be worth. If the NPV of any gain is < added cost, I'd consider skipping the optimizers or SolarEdge.

Its about $100 more to go the SE route. I don't have shading but there are some nice things about the SE inverter mentioned in another post. Such as a better warranty, slightly higher efficiency and it also adds module level monitoring and auto DC shutdown feature.

But you also lose the backup power feature of the SMA inverter.

[J.P.M.]

Its about $100 more to go the SE route. I don't have shading but there are some nice things about the SE inverter mentioned in another post. Such as a better warranty, slightly higher efficiency and it also adds module level monitoring and auto DC shutdown feature.

But you also lose the backup power feature of the SMA inverter.

Evaluate your needs. Ascribe value to the pros/cons of each option as you see them. Iterate for consequences of each choice. jBottom line it. Make a decision. Then pull the trigger on a choice and live with the results of the deliberations.

[JSchnee21]

If you're set on a premium panel, there's nothing particularly special about Solaria's panels. Panasonic (Sanyo) HIT 325-330W's and LG Neon R's 350-365W are both more efficient, and have much longer track records as reliable solar panel MFG's. Solaria might be a great company (I have no idea), but they are silicon valley start up and likely to go boom at any time. Panasonic and LG are much larger companies and have been in business for many decades.

As others have pointed out, if your roof is big enough, there's no need for a higher priced premium efficiency panel. A panel from one of better Chinese of Korean providers (Trina, Hanwa, Jinko, etc.) will offer similar performance (PTC for PTC) and reliability at a much lower price point per watt.

I find Solaria's website particularly void of technical details and full of PR spin and hype. Not a good sign.

For comparison:

Solaria

http://fortuneenergy.net/content/solaria320datasheet.pdf

Panasonic
ftp://ftp.panasonic.com/solar/specsh...spec-sheet.pdf

LG

http://www.lg.com/us/business/solar-panel/all-products/lg-LG365Q1C-A5

Have you started to get installer quotes yet? Where are you at in terms of $/Watt? Generally speaking, for an average system you should be in the $2.80 to $3.20 per Watt -- complete, fully installed.

In terms of the panels alone, Trina/Hanwa/Jinko will be in the ~$0.50 to ~$0.80 per Watt, with Panasonic and LG NeonR in the ~$0.95 to $1.20 per Watt.

I have no idea what the Solaria panels cost. But the top of the market panels (Sun Power, LG Neon R, Panasonic) generally max out at ~$1.50/Watt. So if they are more (or equal) to that then they are just robbing you blind.

[df0rster]

The solaria cost about .80 per watt on sale. I

[J.P.M.]

The solaria cost about .80 per watt on sale. I

Unless you're DIYing it, the price for the panel without the BOS of material - inverter, tacking, wiring, and permitting, etc. - is somewhat immaterial.

[df0rster]

Unless you're DIYing it, the price for the panel without the BOS of material - inverter, tacking, wiring, and permitting, etc. - is somewhat immaterial.

Yes I am DIYing it. There aren't a lot of solar installation companies around me in rural OK, also I could not justify $3-$4/watt installed cost that I have seen posted. I'm still doing a lot of research on design, installation, ROI, etc..

so far I'm coming up with around $7000 total cost for about 6000w system, including panels inverter and BOS materials.

I'm sure i'll have many more questions before I make any firm decisions.

[J.P.M.]

Yes I am DIYing it. There aren't a lot of solar installation companies around me in rural OK, also I could not justify $3-$4/watt installed cost that I have seen posted. I'm still doing a lot of research on design, installation, ROI, etc..

so far I'm coming up with around $7000 total cost for about 6000w system, including panels inverter and BOS materials.

I'm sure i'll have many more questions before I make any firm decisions.

FWW, that $7K (~ $1.10 - $1.25/STC W) sounds like about what other DIY'ers have wound up with for costs after all the goofs & giggles.
I'd respectfully suggest getting any permitting questions squared away with AHJ as part of preliminary design. In spite of what some may think, building depts. can often be a real and valuable information resource.

Reduce your electrical load as much as your lifestyle choices permit before PV. Estimate resulting annual use reductions and reduce your design load accordingly. The PV array will get smaller, less expensive and easier to build as a result.

Good luck.

[df0rster]

FWW, that $7K (~ $1.10 - $1.25/STC W) sounds like about what other DIY'ers have wound up with for costs after all the goofs & giggles.
I'd respectfully suggest getting any permitting questions squared away with AHJ as part of preliminary design. In spite of what some may think, building depts. can often be a real and valuable information resource.

Reduce your electrical load as much as your lifestyle choices permit before PV. Estimate resulting annual use reductions and reduce your design load accordingly. The PV array will get smaller, less expensive and easier to build as a result.

Good luck.

Thanks for the info. Seems like my pricing is inline with that.

Our house is new so a lot has been built into reducing the load already. it is about 2500 sqft w/ geothermal hvac, supplemental wood heat, closed cell foam throughout, radiant floor heat.. and we use about 850kwh/month. A lot of thought was put into energy efficiency. Not to say more couldn't be done.

[TAZ427]

Have you looked at what your baseline power consumption is and what can be done to reduce it. Often those baseline items that are running 24/7/365 can suck up a decent amount of your power consumption, and that doesn't matter how efficiently your home was built for the HVAC side of things. If you've got 120W worth baseline you can trim out that's 86.4kWhr in 30days or 10% of your electricity average and that's 10% you can save by trimming back your installation to match.

If you haven't thought about it, save your receipts, including permitting costs, and electricians help, etc for the TAX Credit.

[df0rster]

Have you looked at what your baseline power consumption is and what can be done to reduce it. Often those baseline items that are running 24/7/365 can suck up a decent amount of your power consumption, and that doesn't matter how efficiently your home was built for the HVAC side of things. If you've got 120W worth baseline you can trim out that's 86.4kWhr in 30days or 10% of your electricity average and that's 10% you can save by trimming back your installation to match.

If you haven't thought about it, save your receipts, including permitting costs, and electricians help, etc for the TAX Credit.

Great ideas!

How does one go about figuring out the baseline consumption? If you're talking things like dc transformers for laptops, etc, does one simply go around unplugging tranformers and power bricks, etc?

We already use smart lights and switches with occupancy sensors and timers that help reduce waste. Although the smart switches themselves probably consume a few kwh/month.

Also with all the new wifi stuff running all the time I'm sure there is waste there. security cameras, wifi appliances, etc.