How Old is "Too Old"

[Mattbdog]

Hello all, I'm brand new to this. I have searched through the forums, but can't find a specific thread about the system I am considering.
I'm down to 2 installers, both with great reviews. One is proposing SunPower E19 320W panels with Sun Edge Optimizers.
The other is proposing SunPower E22 360W panels with microinverters.
We have plenty of east facing roof (really no south facing), so I can't see the advantage to the higher efficiency panels, which are obviously much more expensive.
I get the feeling he is trying to up-sell me. He says the E19 and Sun Edge technology is obsolete.
I'm planning on going with the 320W Sun Edge system, but this accusation of being too old did get under my skin.
Any thoughts on whether or not this tech is "too old" would be greatly appreciated, because I don't have any background in this, and don't really know where else to go for specific recommendations without bias otherwise. Thanks much.

[NukeEngineer]

SolarEdge isn't old technology. Their newest line of HD Waves are the highest efficiency inverters your money can buy, at 99%. As for panels, as long as you're not tight on roof space, then go with the cheapest per watt. Simple as that!

[Kingram]

How much roof space do you have ? here is a google estimator tool to find out- https://www.google.com/get/sunroof#p=0
I have only 600 sq ft so I went with the Sun Power 360 wt panels.

[J.P.M.]

"Too old" is pretty much B.S. Not much has changed in panel technology since the introduction of the E19 panel (or before for that matter). More a matter of tweaking the specs, stated panel tolerances and coefficients and a few treeks/refinements in panel tolerances and mfg. & production. A 5 kW array with E19 panels will produce about as much annual output as a 5 kW array with E22 panels. Chances are either will do that for as long as you're likely to own either array. The E22 equipped array may be a bit smaller by allowing (22-19)/22 or 13% (rounded) fewer panels.

On efficiency: If you're referring to the Sunpower definition of efficiency - that is, an area efficiency, save your money. Sunpower states they have the most "efficient" panel - that's an area efficiency, not a production efficiency. A lot of un or ill informed folks drink the S.P. koolaid about the "most efficient" panel, don't know it's B.S. and leave a lot of $$ on the table in the process. If you are concerned about dollar efficiency, or cost effectiveness, know that Sunpower, while a good product, is usually overpriced for what you get and therefore about the least efficient panel choice in terms of most bang for the buck, or initial price, or long term cost effectiveness, or fit for purpose quality. Other panels from equally reputable mfgs. can often be had with the result that an array can be done for about 15-20% less upfront. Note what I wrote about all 5 kW arrays producing about equal annual output. Beyond some basic level of quality, that goes for any panel, Sunpower or anyone else's.

Panels have become a commodity. Sunpower's primary advantage (such as it may be) is that a 5 kW S.P. array will take up less real estate on a roof, but that will usually add a fair amount to the price for no real economic or reliability advantages and produce about the same annual output as any decent quality system of equal (electrical) size.

Welcome to the neighborhood and the forum of few(er) illusions.

[Mattbdog]

How much roof space do you have ? here is a google estimator tool to find out- https://www.google.com/get/sunroof#p=0
I have only 600 sq ft so I went with the Sun Power 360 wt panels.

They both agree there is more than enough roof for our needs even with the lower efficency pannels. It seemed the expensive company was just trying to justify why they would not use older tech... but it seems clear on this forum that upselling in that way is not necessary. Thank you

[Mattbdog]

"Too old" is pretty much B.S. Not much has changed in panel technology since the introduction of the E19 panel (or before for that matter). More a matter of tweaking the specs, stated panel tolerances and coefficients and a few treeks/refinements in panel tolerances and mfg. & production. A 5 kW array with E19 panels will produce about as much annual output as a 5 kW array with E22 panels. Chances are either will do that for as long as you're likely to own either array. The E22 equipped array may be a bit smaller by allowing (22-19)/22 or 13% (rounded) fewer panels.

On efficiency: If you're referring to the Sunpower definition of efficiency - that is, an area efficiency, save your money. Sunpower states they have the most "efficient" panel - that's an area efficiency, not a production efficiency. A lot of un or ill informed folks drink the S.P. koolaid about the "most efficient" panel, don't know it's B.S. and leave a lot of $$ on the table in the process. If you are concerned about dollar efficiency, or cost effectiveness, know that Sunpower, while a good product, is usually overpriced for what you get and therefore about the least efficient panel choice in terms of most bang for the buck, or initial price, or long term cost effectiveness, or fit for purpose quality. Other panels from equally reputable mfgs. can often be had with the result that an array can be done for about 15-20% less upfront. Note what I wrote about all 5 kW arrays producing about equal annual output. Beyond some basic level of quality, that goes for any panel, Sunpower or anyone else's.

Panels have become a commodity. Sunpower's primary advantage (such as it may be) is that a 5 kW S.P. array will take up less real estate on a roof, but that will usually add a fair amount to the price for no real economic or reliability advantages and produce about the same annual output as any decent quality system of equal (electrical) size.

Welcome to the neighborhood and the forum of few(er) illusions.

Thanks for that reply. I total beleive everything I have seen here on the forum and what you said in this reply. I guess the sticking point for me was the Sun Power seemed to have moved to micro-inverters built into the new panels, and the older panels rely on a seperate inverter +/- Sun Edge optimizer.
I think the salesman's main point was that having pannels without the microinverters is obsolete. Seems like the more unbiased answer is that those panels are still perfectly good.

[J.P.M.]

Thanks for that reply. I total beleive everything I have seen here on the forum and what you said in this reply. I guess the sticking point for me was the Sun Power seemed to have moved to micro-inverters built into the new panels, and the older panels rely on a seperate inverter +/- Sun Edge optimizer.
I think the salesman's main point was that having pannels without the microinverters is obsolete. Seems like the more unbiased answer is that those panels are still perfectly good.

You're moist welcome.

Do as you see fit, but looks to me like you're stuck in the Sunpower mind set. S.P. is good stuff, but it's simply hard to justify the extra cost. As an off topic matter, unless there is a big shade problem (which to me raises the question of suitability for the whole application in terms of cost effectiveness), I'm not a big fan of micros, but that aside, lots of other quality panels can work with micros for a whole lot less money and equal quality.

I'd agree that the older panels are as OK as new ones (provided they are not used or sloppy seconds - which they probably are not), but to be clear, that's not saying that S.P equipment is one bit better than other new stuff from different mfgs. that can be acquired for a lot less from equally reputable vendors.

IMO, S.P. has a lot of solar ignorant people B.S 'd. They're selling a Mercedes when a Ford or Toyota is equally fit for purpose as a grocery hauler.

Pay your money, take your choice, but I'd get some other bids on equal (electrical) sized systems and see what the prices are - just DO NOT, under any circumstances reveal or share prices between vendors - you will only pay more in the end.

[AmitBajpayee]

If you have enough space, you can go for SunPower E19 320W panels with Sun Edge Optimizers as i don't think this technology is out dated. And if you are good with budget and tight on space i would suggest SunPower E22 360W panels with microinverters.

[J.P.M.]

If you have enough space, you can go for SunPower E19 320W panels with Sun Edge Optimizers as i don't think this technology is out dated. And if you are good with budget and tight on space i would suggest SunPower E22 360W panels with microinverters.

Just be confident of the price you pay for a kWh of production over the course of a year with Sunpower equipment vs. other reputable brands. S.P. is a bit like a Mercedes - good stuff but overpriced for the task of hauling groceries. If you need more space, consider load reductions to decrease the required system size. That'll make the array smaller regardless of whose panel are used.

[Kendalf]

Pay your money, take your choice, but I'd get some other bids on equal (electrical) sized systems and see what the prices are - just DO NOT, under any circumstances reveal or share prices between vendors - you will only pay more in the end.

Definitely get some additional quotes from non-SunPower installers. Did you eliminate other installers before arriving at the 2 SunPower quotes? Competition among solar installers is pretty fierce esp. in CA; the companies I was considering dropped their prices by over 20% from their initial quotes by the time I was making my final decision.

JPM, curious why you say never to reveal prices between vendors? Giving companies a quote to beat was how we ended up getting what we considered to be a great deal with our preferred company. It's a similar strategy when we purchase a car.

[J.P.M.]

JPM, curious why you say never to reveal prices between vendors? Giving companies a quote to beat was how we ended up getting what we considered to be a great deal with our preferred company. It's a similar strategy when we purchase a car.

Before I was an engineer, I was a peddler of industrial equipment for ~ 10 years. I learned a lot. some of what I learned is applicable to selling solar equipment to mostly solar ignorant homeowners.

1.) Astute vendors already know who their competition is where the competition is or ought to be to make some profit. Their main reason for seeking what other vendors pricing may be is so that, if they choose to bid, they can underbid by as little as possible and still get a job. Customers who buy on low price are easy marks. Price matching is the easiest way to qualify them and save time and hassle by simply throwing a price that'll hit the customer's goal of low $$. Damn me for writing the truth as I see it, but fit for purpose quality is of little concern to such buyers.

2.) If you have a bid of, say, $3.25/W and you reveal it to another vendor, that other vendor may come back with, say, $3.20/W. If you do not reveal pricing, the other vendor will not know where the pricing needs to be and, depending on their quality, their knowledge of the competition, how badly they need the business and a lot of other things, they may well come back with, say, $3.00/W that you'd never have seen if you share the $3.25/W price. Or, they may come back with $3.50/W. If they come back at $3.50/W, you still have a $3.25 W price point in hand and can say: "Thank you for your time, but you are too high" and keep the $3.25/W to yourself. That's when negotiation begins. But, if their price without knowing you have $3.25/W in hand comes in at that $3.00 you just saved $0.25/Watt that I can almost promise you would not have been much less than $3.25/W if you had shared prices.

3.) Bottom line: Any vendor who knows were the pricing is has no need to go more than $0.01 below that price. Any vendor who doesn't know where the pricing is may well bid more than $0.01 less. Either way, you have a price. Getting a lower one is easier if you keep the pricing to yourself and damn near impossible if you share pricing. Looked at another way, you have nothing to lose and everything to gain by keeping you mouth shut and cards close to the vest.

As a buyer, your responsibility is to know how to compare bids and get some bid parity with respect to equipment, and equally importantly, know what you want and why. That is, for example know that you need an 8 kw system - not a 10 kW system, and that, say, Solarworld will be equally acceptable as Sunpower, and more importantly for bidding purposes, why. Buyers need to ask questions and equally need to know the answers to those questions before they ask them. Asking vendors questions is like asking a fox how you should design your hen house.

Take what you may want of the above. Scrap the rest.

[Kendalf]

I hear where you're coming from and I get what you mean about not revealing your hand too early in the process. What I did was go through a couple rounds of bidding with some of the top-rated companies serving my area, while letting the companies know that I was getting competitive bids (without telling them what the actual bids were). The four companies that I met or talked with in person gave me initial quotes in the $3.20-$4.22/W range (the extreme high was from Tesla, and there was a SunPower quote in there as well).

I also made use of EnergySage, which gave me 5 very competitive quotes in the $2.84-$3.00/W range. With EnergySage, because the companies know that the user is getting similarly competitive bids, the pricing is quite aggressive, and was better than what I've heard others in my area have gotten in recent months. I did some more negotiation with a short list of preferred companies to get equipment and sizing parity and one of the companies that I spoke with in person came back with very competitive $2.95 bid that was actually better than the same on EnergySage. We were quite ready to go with this company as the pricing was competitive and the company was very highly regarded, but we wanted to give the other local company (also very highly regarded, though not as big) that we had spoken to earlier one last chance to earn our business so I gave them this quote, and they came back with an offer that beat it at $2.87/W with matching equipment and that's the one we signed with in the end.

So while I agree that revealing bids early in the process may lock you in to a higher cost than what you might have gotten otherwise, as a final negotiation tactic it certainly can pay off. And yes, I certainly agree that just going with the lowest price is not a wise strategy; we strongly considered the reputation of the company and confidence that it will be around for some time to come, as well as our general impression of our interactions with company staff. But we're happy that in the end we were able to negotiate a contract with one of our top companies at a cost that was just about the lowest of all our bids.

[J.P.M.]

I hear where you're coming from and I get what you mean about not revealing your hand too early in the process. What I did was go through a couple rounds of bidding with some of the top-rated companies serving my area, while letting the companies know that I was getting competitive bids (without telling them what the actual bids were). The four companies that I met or talked with in person gave me initial quotes in the $3.20-$4.22/W range (the extreme high was from Tesla, and there was a SunPower quote in there as well).

I also made use of EnergySage, which gave me 5 very competitive quotes in the $2.84-$3.00/W range. With EnergySage, because the companies know that the user is getting similarly competitive bids, the pricing is quite aggressive, and was better than what I've heard others in my area have gotten in recent months. I did some more negotiation with a short list of preferred companies to get equipment and sizing parity and one of the companies that I spoke with in person came back with very competitive $2.95 bid that was actually better than the same on EnergySage. We were quite ready to go with this company as the pricing was competitive and the company was very highly regarded, but we wanted to give the other local company (also very highly regarded, though not as big) that we had spoken to earlier one last chance to earn our business so I gave them this quote, and they came back with an offer that beat it at $2.87/W with matching equipment and that's the one we signed with in the end.

So while I agree that revealing bids early in the process may lock you in to a higher cost than what you might have gotten otherwise, as a final negotiation tactic it certainly can pay off. And yes, I certainly agree that just going with the lowest price is not a wise strategy; we strongly considered the reputation of the company and confidence that it will be around for some time to come, as well as our general impression of our interactions with company staff. But we're happy that in the end we were able to negotiate a contract with one of our top companies at a cost that was just about the lowest of all our bids.

When I got quotes, doing on 5 years ago, I knew which vendor was rock bottom on price, and also that I didn't want them on my property. I got a quote from them. I then requested other quotes from established electrical contractors whose work I was familiar with. I asked for written proposals to a fairly detailed request for proposal I'd written up. All were capable of doing the work at the quality level I required. I never revealed pricing.

After some back/forth, the last vendor standing was not the least expensive quote I had, but was the one who was the most complete. I then asked for best and final price. They came in at ~ 5 % above the el cheapo vendor's price. I then told that vendor that they could have my business for a price that was $0.05/W less than the el cheapo price. They accepted my offer. You can find it on the CSI data base under CSI # :SD-CSI-17646. That price/Watt was the least expensive paid for a Sunpower system in CA up to that point and for some time to come except for that of a S.P. vendor who installed his own system.

In the end, I got good quality work and more than I paid for.

Long story about why I rail against S.P. pricing and own a S.P. system, but that's off topic and for another time.

[Tdjj93]

Enphase just completed large amounts of r&d and their newest IQ7 and upcoming IQ8 are revolutionary that are ACM ..preinstalled at the factory. So yes solar edge is becoming obsolete with their single point of failure .your guy is actually ahead of the market trend

[J.P.M.]

They both agree there is more than enough roof for our needs even with the lower efficency pannels. It seemed the expensive company was just trying to justify why they would not use older tech... but it seems clear on this forum that upselling in that way is not necessary. Thank you

Upselling in any way whatsoever is not necessary - ever.

And, if you dig a bit more under the hype and learn more, you'll find that Sunpower stuff, while good quality, is no more fit for purpose than other equipment - with that other equipment costing ~~ 20 % less upfront. Kind of like using gold bricks for paperweights when lead bricks are as fit for the purpose.