Running a system before receiving PTO

[Ampster]

Are you in California mweiighhhall, what area?

We may not hear back from mwelihgthall because he hasn't posted since 2018. I would have been interesting to see how he resolved his dilemma.

[Iamsteve]

Short version of long story.

A buddy of mine who is a professional installer helped me put a 10kw system on my roof. Turns out my city required a complete rapid shut down. I faked a rapid shut down box that was made by Fronius to be 'compatible' with my Fronius IG Plus inverter which cost me $200. I also installed an aftermarket rapid shut down that cost me $900.

The city bought it, the install is SUPER clean and the inspector said so. Kudos to my buddy for doing a good job.

I apply to PG&E on October ~5th. Now they say my inverter is not a compatible "Smart inverter" and I need to get a new inverter $3,000, and resubmit to the city and get them to sign off it then I can submit to PG&E for PTO.

I've been running the system for 5 months anyway. its producing like 30kw per day. PGE is showing on my bill that I am getting a bill credit for ALL the electricity being produced even though I have not been given PTO or put on a NEM. Frankly i don't care paying monthly as long as I get a bill credit.

Choice #1 - Buy the $3,000 inverter, submit to the city again, get legal

Choice #2 - let it it right and get the system 'legal' and submit to PGE before I sell the house so I don't leave a problem for the next guy but NOT be out like $4,000 right now.

Any opinions? Or Comments?

Are you in California mweiighhhall, what area?

[Ampster]

I ran it for a day to see how it worked, and it did make the meter LED go backwards (I little underscore under the readout goes left to right when I import/use power, right to left when I export power). And several days later, I could see on my hourly power usage from their website that I had zero usage shown from 10am - 6pm when the system was on. Oddly, the total KWHrs did go down on my meter, but PGE did show that negative KWHrs anywhere on the daily usage graph.

I have heard from 2 neighbors that they never heard back from PGE with PTO, but they left their system on the full time and after about 5 days was able to see negative power readings on the graph indicating NEMS was active. They are on solar billing, but never a PTO. I wish there was a more clear way to see when PGE activates NEMS, since their PTO notifications are not reliable.

My experience in a similar situation over 15 months while waiting for my PTO was that the meter reports the generation from your system but the billing system does not reflect any generation until the PTO is issued. The billing did not change until the next cycle so for some it could be as long as 30 days. During that time I developed some workarounds to charge my EVs with solar and cool down my house. Fortunately I had devices that I could monitor and adjust remotely but it was a pain to do that to save $0.50 per kWh.

[blueman2]

When you power up for a test, does your meter slow down, reverse, or speed up? If you have a smart meter, it needs to be reprogrammed because they normally count all power as consumed power. They download new software into the meter, and then it will unwind when you are pushing power into the grid.

I ran it for a day to see how it worked, and it did make the meter LED go backwards (I little underscore under the readout goes left to right when I import/use power, right to left when I export power). And several days later, I could see on my hourly power usage from their website that I had zero usage shown from 10am - 6pm when the system was on. Oddly, the total KWHrs did go down on my meter, but PGE did show that negative KWHrs anywhere on the daily usage graph.

I have heard from 2 neighbors that they never heard back from PGE with PTO, but they left their system on the full time and after about 5 days was able to see negative power readings on the graph indicating NEMS was active. They are on solar billing, but never a PTO. I wish there was a more clear way to see when PGE activates NEMS, since their PTO notifications are not reliable.

[Mike90250]

When you power up for a test, does your meter slow down, reverse, or speed up? If you have a smart meter, it needs to be reprogrammed because they normally count all power as consumed power. They download new software into the meter, and then it will unwind when you are pushing power into the grid.

[blueman2]

Anyone have experience with recent PGE PTO times? Contractor submitted paperwork 2-1/2 weeks ago, we got all the replies from PGE we would expect, asking me to fill out some online docusign forms, etc. Contractor says all was submitted and nothing outstanding. But 18 days later not a peep from PGE. Is there any way to check status? PGE is refusing any calls right now due to power outages. I have scanned my online account details for any sign of changes but see nothing obvious.

[azdave]

I have an advanced (smart?) inverter that was installed by my POCO only a few months after my system went live. I'm told it has the ability to help them stabilize the grid as opposed to just disconnecting itself when there is trouble. I think they have several hundred installed around the city. I agreed to the install for the free ABB inverter plus close to $400 in billing credits for allowing them access.


"Whereas traditional inverters are programmed to shut off during disturbances on the electrical grid, advanced inverters can continue to operate and even assist in smoothing out an increasingly variable grid."

[foo1bar]

You are saying, its just a sloppy tolerance unit, not much to brag about. So why would the PoCo
want that? Undo their standards?

The inverter is capable of being told what to do from a remote server. So not just "sloppy tolerance unit".

[bcroe]

They don't.

Those are two separate things.

A "smart inverter" has capability to adjust to a less-than-perfect grid.
For example if the voltage/frequency is dropping because there's lots of AC units being run and the POCO can't keep up.
non-smart inverter will probably disconnect because the grid is "out of spec". And that leads to the
POCO being even less able to keep up, so more inverters go offline, and so on.
A smart inverter (in theory) will continue to pump out power.

A smart meter just (mostly) eliminates the job of a meter reader and provides finer-granularity of data to the POCO

You are saying, its just a sloppy tolerance unit, not much to brag about. So why would the PoCo
want that? Undo their standards? My impression was they eventually wanted to use the smart
meter to have some control on equipment at customers end, turning off some peak loads, having
inverter help correct power factor, etc? Bruce Roe

[foo1bar]

Just how does a Smart Inverter interact with a Smart Meter anyway? Is there some form
of communication channel? Bruce Roe

They don't.

Those are two separate things.

A "smart inverter" has capability to adjust to a less-than-perfect grid.
For example if the voltage/frequency is dropping because there's lots of AC units being run and the POCO can't keep up.
non-smart inverter will probably disconnect because the grid is "out of spec". And that leads to the POCO being even less able to keep up, so more inverters go offline, and so on.
A smart inverter (in theory) will continue to pump out power.

A smart meter just (mostly) eliminates the job of a meter reader and provides finer-granularity of data to the POCO

[jmargo]

Just resubmit your app with PGE and put an inverter that is on the list. They will never know.....

EDIT: I don't actually suggest you try and bypass PGE.

[J.P.M.]

agreed, it worries me. Just annoying. I missed the cutoff by like 3-4 weeks..... 9/7/2017 and I applied like October 6. $3,000 mistake not knowing it was coming.

So, acknowledge the mistake as you've done, correct the situation and move on. But know that until PTO, you're live without a net and it's a long way down.

[ImInPhxAZ]

What a pain to have missed it by so close! Though it may be tempting to leave it, just know at anytime they can walk up to your house and pull your meter out and leave you without power. Next, force you to deal with alot of red tape to get your power turned back on. From another risk, no permission to operate = no record that utility deemed your installation safe. This can be a big issue for insurance if you, knock on chinese tempered glass, have a fire. Best to comply with anything a AHJ or POCO says.

[bcroe]

Just how does a Smart Inverter interact with a Smart Meter anyway? Is there some form
of communication channel? Bruce Roe

[frankiek3]

Fronius IG Plus is UL 1741-2005 certified. The new one is UL 1741 Supplement A (SA)

Contact them to see if you can be granted an exception.
http://www.cpuc.ca.gov/Rule21/