Running a system before receiving PTO

[mweighall]

Short version of long story.

A buddy of mine who is a professional installer helped me put a 10kw system on my roof. Turns out my city required a complete rapid shut down. I faked a rapid shut down box that was made by Fronius to be 'compatible' with my Fronius IG Plus inverter which cost me $200. I also installed an aftermarket rapid shut down that cost me $900.

The city bought it, the install is SUPER clean and the inspector said so. Kudos to my buddy for doing a good job.

I apply to PG&E on October ~5th. Now they say my inverter is not a compatible "Smart inverter" and I need to get a new inverter $3,000, and resubmit to the city and get them to sign off it then I can submit to PG&E for PTO.

I've been running the system for 5 months anyway. its producing like 30kw per day. PGE is showing on my bill that I am getting a bill credit for ALL the electricity being produced even though I have not been given PTO or put on a NEM. Frankly i don't care paying monthly as long as I get a bill credit.

Choice #1 - Buy the $3,000 inverter, submit to the city again, get legal

Choice #2 - let it it right and get the system 'legal' and submit to PGE before I sell the house so I don't leave a problem for the next guy but NOT be out like $4,000 right now.

Any opinions? Or Comments?

[Mike90250]

Eventually, the utility (PGE) will win whatever they ask for. If they want a smart meter compatible inverter, they can force the issue by demanding you turn the inverter off, or disconnect you from their Grid.

[foo1bar]

I apply to PG&E on October ~5th. Now they say my inverter is not a compatible "Smart inverter" and I need to get a new inverter $3,000, and resubmit to the city and get them to sign off it then I can submit to PG&E for PTO.

Are you sure that the inverter you have is not a compatible "smart inverter"? I'd find out what the requirement is and check the model number and check with the manufacturer about if that exact model number meets the UL requirements PG&E is enforcing.

Did you finish the install (inspection completed) before 9/9/17? (PG&E allows you to get by without a "smart inverter" IF you finished before then.)

If there's no path to getting it "blessed" by PG&E, I would install a new one and resell the inverter you have (probably can sell it to someone not in PG&E)

FWIW it looks like these smart inverters are supposed to "ride out" some grid instability.
A friend of mine is in PG&E and a few summers ago their inverter shutdown during a day when they were having peak AC demand. So not only did PG&E have a lot of demand due to air conditioning, but they also had production go offline at the same time because they couldn't keep the grid stable enough for the inverters to keep sending power out to the line.,

[peakbagger]

I believe the smart inverter requirement is for a UL 1742 SA rated inverter

[mweighall]

PG&E already told me that my Fronius IG Plus is NOT on their smart inverter list. I know I'll need to get a new one and I'll likely get another Fronius because it is 'compatible' with my rapid shutdown system that the city insisted on.

The city approved my permit and final inspection is done. PG&E won't give me PTO because of the inverter. Everything else is fine.

I just don't want to kick out $3,000 on top of the $26,000 I've already put into it. This is my second inverter (bought a stupid kind from China that wasn't compatible or met city requirements) so going for a third is starting to feel redundant....

How long can I ride it out like this before buying the inverter to be compliant and get a PTO? 5 mins? 5 months?

They're already giving me credit for the solar I produce so financially I'm where I want to be.

[azdave]

If you don't have a PTO cert. can PG&E come back later and take back the credits issued? I honestly don't know but it would worry me. It just seems like no one would be motivated to fix issues like this if they were getting all the benefits already.

[mweighall]

agreed, it worries me. Just annoying. I missed the cutoff by like 3-4 weeks..... 9/7/2017 and I applied like October 6. $3,000 mistake not knowing it was coming.

[foo1bar]

$3,000 mistake not knowing it was coming.

I don't think it's necessarily $3k.
Even a 10kW Fronius Primo is only $2760. You can probably get $400-500 selling the Fronius IG Plus. So ~$2400.
If you use the cost of the Fronius IG Plus (because really that's what you're out ) - it's also less.

And lastly - you can look at doing a 8.2kW inverter or even 7.6kW inverter if you have 10kW panels.
You can find out what the likely peak DC wattage will be for your array given their orientation and tilt.
And decide if losing 1% of production (or whatever it comes out to) is worth saving $700 by going with cheaper/lower power inverter.
I see Fronius 7.6kW inverters for ~$2100 (plus shipping)

[frankiek3]

Fronius IG Plus is UL 1741-2005 certified. The new one is UL 1741 Supplement A (SA)

Contact them to see if you can be granted an exception.
http://www.cpuc.ca.gov/Rule21/

[bcroe]

Just how does a Smart Inverter interact with a Smart Meter anyway? Is there some form
of communication channel? Bruce Roe

[ImInPhxAZ]

What a pain to have missed it by so close! Though it may be tempting to leave it, just know at anytime they can walk up to your house and pull your meter out and leave you without power. Next, force you to deal with alot of red tape to get your power turned back on. From another risk, no permission to operate = no record that utility deemed your installation safe. This can be a big issue for insurance if you, knock on chinese tempered glass, have a fire. Best to comply with anything a AHJ or POCO says.

[J.P.M.]

agreed, it worries me. Just annoying. I missed the cutoff by like 3-4 weeks..... 9/7/2017 and I applied like October 6. $3,000 mistake not knowing it was coming.

So, acknowledge the mistake as you've done, correct the situation and move on. But know that until PTO, you're live without a net and it's a long way down.

[jmargo]

Just resubmit your app with PGE and put an inverter that is on the list. They will never know.....

EDIT: I don't actually suggest you try and bypass PGE.

[foo1bar]

Just how does a Smart Inverter interact with a Smart Meter anyway? Is there some form
of communication channel? Bruce Roe

They don't.

Those are two separate things.

A "smart inverter" has capability to adjust to a less-than-perfect grid.
For example if the voltage/frequency is dropping because there's lots of AC units being run and the POCO can't keep up.
non-smart inverter will probably disconnect because the grid is "out of spec". And that leads to the POCO being even less able to keep up, so more inverters go offline, and so on.
A smart inverter (in theory) will continue to pump out power.

A smart meter just (mostly) eliminates the job of a meter reader and provides finer-granularity of data to the POCO

[bcroe]

They don't.

Those are two separate things.

A "smart inverter" has capability to adjust to a less-than-perfect grid.
For example if the voltage/frequency is dropping because there's lots of AC units being run and the POCO can't keep up.
non-smart inverter will probably disconnect because the grid is "out of spec". And that leads to the
POCO being even less able to keep up, so more inverters go offline, and so on.
A smart inverter (in theory) will continue to pump out power.

A smart meter just (mostly) eliminates the job of a meter reader and provides finer-granularity of data to the POCO

You are saying, its just a sloppy tolerance unit, not much to brag about. So why would the PoCo
want that? Undo their standards? My impression was they eventually wanted to use the smart
meter to have some control on equipment at customers end, turning off some peak loads, having
inverter help correct power factor, etc? Bruce Roe