Letter from SDG&E Regarding new TOU time period

[J.P.M.]

We got this letter too. We have a 10KW ground mount system. producing about -1600 kwh/ $600/mo in summer. we haven't moved into the home yet but want to cover house and 1800 SF shop with A/C. We have an friend who works at SDGE in the dept that helps customers with solar. She advised us to take the DRSES now. she said we will be able to stay on tiered billing (if we chose) until 2021, then you WILL NOT have tiered billing you WILL BE time-of-use with On-Peak from 4-9pm. If you pick a TOU rate after 12/1/17

do you agree we should switch from tiered to TOU?

Whether or not it makes economic sense to switch from tiered to T.O.U. requires a detailed 15 minute analysis of your likely use. Lots of peak hour use will probably make T.O.U. billing more costly. No peak hour use will probably make T.O.U. less expensive. Old use patterns can be helpful but somewhat limited if your use patterns have or will change, either due to life style changes or deliberate time shifting of loads. There is no one size/scheme fits everyone.

If you are, or will be an excess generator, it may be better to stay on tiered, or at least not quite so much of an advantage with T.O.U. If you haven't moved in yet and so don't know what your typical usage will be to a better approximation, I'd consider staying on tiered, getting some use history and simultaneously estimating what the same usage and pattern of use under T.O.U. might cost.

[questioner]

Whether or not it makes economic sense to switch from tiered to T.O.U. requires a detailed 15 minute analysis of your likely use. Lots of peak hour use will probably make T.O.U. billing more costly. No peak hour use will probably make T.O.U. less expensive. Old use patterns can be helpful but somewhat limited if your use patterns have or will change, either due to life style changes or deliberate time shifting of loads. There is no one size/scheme fits everyone.

If you are, or will be an excess generator, it may be better to stay on tiered, or at least not quite so much of an advantage with T.O.U. If you haven't moved in yet and so don't know what your typical usage will be to a better approximation, I'd consider staying on tiered, getting some use history and simultaneously estimating what the same usage and pattern of use under T.O.U. might cost.

thank you.....I was think same - that because we won't be able to reduce our use during the peak hours it would make TOU more costly. but if we stay on tiered - according to our friend - eventually we will be forced into the less desirable tou plan........its all very complicated, esp if you're not into math

[J.P.M.]

thank you.....I was think same - that because we won't be able to reduce our use during the peak hours it would make TOU more costly. but if we stay on tiered - according to our friend - eventually we will be forced into the less desirable tou plan........its all very complicated, esp if you're not into math

Point is and bottom line: T.O.U. may or may not be me more cost effective for you, me, or any other residential user. We all gotta' run the numbers and there are few assumptions or general statements about T.O.U. vs. tiered that can be made without a chance of stepping on a rate trap/landmine, with the number running task better done with better, complete and clear understanding of how T.O.U. tariffs work for both rate and times, as well as how, when, and in what ways T.O.U. requirements and changeover mandates and dates will or may apply.

FWIW, the way I see it some users may be better off staying on tiered until better/clearer information makes for better decision making, kind of like the devil you know type of crap logic.

Please pass along to your friend whose job it is to explain/answer questions that while no one blames her (at least not me), SDG & E has done a very good job of muddying the waters as to just what's happening or likely to happen with respect to T.O.U. and rates in general to the point of making things less rather than more understandable. Great aid to decision making (NOT).

[questioner]

Point is and bottom line: T.O.U. may or may not be me more cost effective for you, me, or any other residential user. We all gotta' run the numbers and there are few assumptions or general statements about T.O.U. vs. tiered that can be made without a chance of stepping on a rate trap/landmine, with the number running task better done with better, complete and clear understanding of how T.O.U. tariffs work for both rate and times, as well as how, when, and in what ways T.O.U. requirements and changeover mandates and dates will or may apply.

FWIW, the way I see it some users may be better off staying on tiered until better/clearer information makes for better decision making, kind of like the devil you know type of crap logic.

Please pass along to your friend whose job it is to explain/answer questions that while no one blames her (at least not me), SDG & E has done a very good job of muddying the waters as to just what's happening or likely to happen with respect to T.O.U. and rates in general to the point of making things less rather than more understandable. Great aid to decision making (NOT).

thank you
I get the impression most people here think tiered is more desirable. I'd be inclined to keep that for now. Husband is more inclined to listen to SDGE friend.
thank you for the advice

[J.P.M.]

thank you
I get the impression most people here think tiered is more desirable. I'd be inclined to keep that for now. Husband is more inclined to listen to SDGE friend.
thank you for the advice

That may be, but I'd respectfully suggest most, but by no means all folks around here don't know the difference between tiered and T.O.U. and simply repeat the last thing they heard/read/remembered. But, a lot of other informed folks around here favor T.O.U. Really savvy folks know that one or the other being better/worse is different for most every situation with some general guidelines like T.O.U. is more cost effective with an empty house/low usage during peak hours, and that T.O.U. is not as sweet a deal as in the past for PV users now that the peak hours have shifted to late afternoon/early evening.

You're welcome for the advice, such as it may be. Respectful suggestion: Question everything everyone says, including, and maybe especially, me. None of us is as smart as all of us and opinions vary. Advice around here is cheap (free). Most stuff around here is probably well intentioned, but you get what you pay for or less and it's all mostly anonymous.

FWIW, I'm on tiered rates and NEM 1.0. Unless things change in ways favorable to me, I'm holding where I am for as long as I can, but that's neither a recommendation or bad mouth of any choice. NEM 2.0 users may/do not have the same choices/options.

[questioner]

That may be, but I'd respectfully suggest most, but by all means all folks around here don't know the difference between tiered and T.O.U. and simply repeat the last thing they heard/read/remembered. But, a lot of other informed folks around here favor T.O.U. Really savvy folks know that one or the other being better/worse is different for most every situation with some general guidelines like T.O.U. is more cost effective with an empty house/low usage during peak hours, and that T.O.U. is not as sweet a deal as in the past for PV users now that the peak hours have shifted to late afternoon/early evening.

You're welcome for the advice, such as it may be. Respectful suggestion: Question everything everyone says, including, and maybe especially, me. None of us is as smart as all of us and opinions vary. Advice around here is cheap (free). Most stuff around here is probably well intentioned, but you get what you pay for or less and it's all mostly anonymous.

FWIW, I'm on tiered rates and NEM 1.0. Unless things change in ways favorable to me, I'm holding where I am for as long as I can, but that's neither a recommendation or bad mouth of any choice. NEM 2.0 users may/do not have the same choices/options.

So if we go to TOU and are using energy during the expensive time will we also be producing more at the peak time to offset that?

[J.P.M.]

So if we go to TOU and are using energy during the expensive time will we also be producing more at the peak time to offset that?

If you use energy during peak (expensive)times, you will pay more for it. But, there's more to it than that. In short, the expensive times are changing to later in the day. The effect of that is to make systems that go to or are already on T.O.U. schedules either now or after any available grandfathering expires ~ 20 % less cost effective, or stretching out payback times by something like 20 % or so.

Here's the deal: Peak times, as well as to a lesser impact rates when electricity is both expensive to purchase and also profitable to produce/feed back to the grid, are changing. Used to be that peak times were more coincident with the hours of high production for PV systems - roughly from mid morning to late afternoon - that is, times when most PV systems produce the most power. That's changing in a way not favorable to PV system cost effectiveness

Changes to net metering and T.O.U. billing schedules are now, or soon will be such that peak hours are shifting to ~ 4 P.M. to 9 P.M. or so, and thus a better match for peak grid usage loads (which is the POCO's justification, and probably has some validity), but also (and not coincidentally as some would say) a lousy match for PV system production because by then, systems are mostly wound down for the day and not producing as much power and so not producing as much or little peak time/rate credit.

So, as I state ad nauseam, users will best served by digging into their power provider's web site and studying the various rates available, how those rate plans work and what's available to those users. Every situation is different and not easy to decipher. It's a real and quite substantial PITA, but I know of no other way to do it. If someone has a better way that's more than some peddlers scam, I'd like to know about it.

Bottom line: To get the lowest electric bill, use less, and use as little as possible during peak time/rate hours. Some user involvement will be much more cost effective than more PV.

For SDG & E, and perhaps other tariffs for other POCO's, one feature that can make PV sizing a bit easier than before is that all NEM 2.0 users (without EV's) will probably be on schedule DR - SES. The easier part comes in from the fact that because of one feature of that schedule and how it works and bills customers, it's easier to approximate annual savings per STC kW from a PV system, which makes the task of system sizing a bit more linear. Ball park, every STC kW of PV that's installed in a mostly southerly direction (and not west facing as folks incorrectly think), at a reasonably common slope of ~ 20 to 30 deg. or so, and with not much shade, can shave ~ $380 - $410/yr. off a an annual bill figured using the (default) schedule DR - SES. Those numbers are very approximate and will change when new DR - SES rates come out, probably after 12/01/2017. Point is, once a bill is figured out using green button data and a time/usage adjustment plan, an annual bill can be estimated, and a system sized as f(how much of a bill you want left).

[lessthanjoey]

It looks like the TOU grandfathering page has some updates from when I last saw it:

https://www.sdge.com/clean-energy/time-use-period-grandfathering-net-energy-metering-customers

I'm reading this as schedule NEM-ST customers who have PTO and opt for a TOU rate prior to 12/1/2017 will receive grandfathering for 5 years from their PTO? Previously I had thought that ship had sailed in June, but this sounds very like NEM-ST customers just have to be on TOU in November (whereas NEM customers had to be on TOU in July). If so, this is great news for me as I only very recently got PTO and am on EV-TOU2 now.

Thoughts?

[sensij]

It looks like the TOU grandfathering page has some updates from when I last saw it:

https://www.sdge.com/clean-energy/time-use-period-grandfathering-net-energy-metering-customers

I'm reading this as schedule NEM-ST customers who have PTO and opt for a TOU rate prior to 12/1/2017 will receive grandfathering for 5 years from their PTO? Previously I had thought that ship had sailed in June, but this sounds very like NEM-ST customers just have to be on TOU in November (whereas NEM customers had to be on TOU in July). If so, this is great news for me as I only very recently got PTO and am on EV-TOU2 now.

Thoughts?

Yes, that is how I understand it as well. The NEM 1.0 deadline for TOU period grandfathering was July, the NEM-ST deadline is 11/30. The deadline for NEM-ST customers to elect the tiered plan (and keep it for 5 years) is 3/30/2018.

[lessthanjoey]

Yes, that is how I understand it as well. The NEM 1.0 deadline for TOU period grandfathering was July, the NEM-ST deadline is 11/30. The deadline for NEM-ST customers to elect the tiered plan (and keep it for 5 years) is 3/30/2018.

That's awesome, I lucked out! (Since I have an EV and the house is empty in the afternoon I'm way better off on EV-TOU2 w/ grandfathered peak time than tiered)

[eincan]

Hello to the Forum,

I have been on the EVTOU2 rate for 2 years with my car. I just had solar panels installed last week and am awaiting my city inspection and PTO. I may or may not make the 12/1 deadline at this point (really frustrated with my solar company, but that is another story). Based on what I have read I understand I have two scenarios:

1. Get my PTO in time and can get grandfathered in to either the EV or DR-SES existing plans for 5 years.

2. I get my PTO say 12/3 and I am basically forced to go to the new time periods. There is no grandfathering with the EV by itself as technically I won

[eincan]

Sorry not sure why my whole post is not being displayed, but here is the 2nd piece:

Even though I work from home, I use very little power during the day and use a lot power overnight as I charge my car. My current usage is always heavily skewed towards off peak and even more so super off peak. Therefore, I believe these new periods would really not be good for me as I would lose the ability to bank all that extra production during the day at peak rates. The winter is not a big deal as the rates are similar, but in the summer the peak rate is over $0.50 per KWh and with a 4-9 pm peak period versus 12-6pm the difference would be significant.

Are these correct assumptions?

[sensij]

Are these correct assumptions?

Yes, with "significant" being something around 20-30% reduction in the value of the energy produced over the year, under the new hours.

(Your post was truncating on punctuation the forum software didn't like. If you cut and paste, you might need to delete and replace offending characters like quotation marks, apostrophes, hyphens, and others)

[fireme]

Questions: NEM 2.0 - How much $ is TOU credit against usage? How does true-up work?

My PV went net-metering on-line with PG&E a few days ago. 4.8KW panel rated but with shade. Everyday since I have seen negative KWh use when generating between 8 to 4pm. I have been put on the ETOU A plan since I have been a low energy user , 6,500KWh last 12 months. However, it will go up due to charging a 10KWh plug-in daily. Supposedly, my panels will generate 7500 KWh over the next 12 months.
After reading many pages from PGE and forum users, I am still not sure how to calculate the best plan. I know I missed out on the NEM1.0, there is no going back in time. Would folks who had gone through this enlighten me on what the plans really mean?
Suppose, my home usage remain the same but add about 3,500 KWh to 10,000 KWh total use. My PV generates 7,500 KWh but at off-peak hours. One more kink to the model, I have the option to charge my car between 9 to 1pm offpeak or at night, as I work evenings. So I can theoretically charge my car from my PV power most days. Since I own a plug in, even if some emergency came up, I can still drive by gas only.
There is two things I am not clear wrt to the NEM2.0 plans. First is how much $ is my power credit calculated. If I generate excess at off-peak and of course use PGE power at peak, how is it squared up? I read somewhere they only give you $0.03 KWh for excess power. Offpeak excess cannot be credited for Peak usage? Second, there is the yearly true up, which I am mostly clueless about. I read that if you have a net credit in the TOU range it is wiped out. But if there is a $ due, you must pay. Sounds like a bad deal for PV. It seems to encourage people to add batteries to not move energy around the grid. I am not adding batteries for now. So it appears the best option is to shift usage as much as possible to PV generation hours. So that one send as little as possible of the PV generated power to the grid since it is not a good arbitrage. I know every utility will have different rates but generally, am I right?

[sensij]

Questions: NEM 2.0 - How much $ is TOU credit against usage? How does true-up work?
There is two things I am not clear wrt to the NEM2.0 plans. First is how much $ is my power credit calculated. If I generate excess at off-peak and of course use PGE power at peak, how is it squared up? I read somewhere they only give you $0.03 KWh for excess power. Offpeak excess cannot be credited for Peak usage? Second, there is the yearly true up, which I am mostly clueless about. I read that if you have a net credit in the TOU range it is wiped out. But if there is a $ due, you must pay. Sounds like a bad deal for PV. It seems to encourage people to add batteries to not move energy around the grid. I am not adding batteries for now. So it appears the best option is to shift usage as much as possible to PV generation hours. So that one send as little as possible of the PV generated power to the grid since it is not a good arbitrage. I know every utility will have different rates but generally, am I right?

No, not right.

You can think of PV generation as an entirely independent revenue generator. Every kWh you generate is worth the kWh price for that time period. If you don't consume it, it goes into your PG&E account at that value.

A simple example.
Your PV system generates 5 kWh at $0.25 / kWh (off-peak), and 3 kWh at $0.50 / kWh (on-peak). That is 8 kWh generated, worth 1.25 + 1.50 = $2.75 of bill credit.

You have a car that needs 8 kWh to charge.
You could charge it during off-peak (at 0.25 / kWh), which costs $2.00, leaving $0.75 of bill credit
You could charge it during super off peak (at 0.20 / kWh), which costs $1.60, leaving $1.15 of bill credit.

In these calculations performed on a dollar basis, any excess bill credit at the end of the year is wiped out, and any amount owed needs to be paid.

You can see that there is no real advantage to charging your car using direct PV power during the day, since it prevents you from banking those kWh credits. A wrinkle to this is non-bypassable charges... if the difference in price between super off peak and daytime off-peak was smaller than the NBC rate, increasing self-consumption might actually make sense. I don't think this condition in the rates exists right now, though.

At true-up, a different calculation is introduced. The true-up looks at just the raw kWh imported from the grid and exported to the grid, and ignores all TOU values. If the amount imported exceeds the amount exported, no change is made. If the amount exported exceeds the amount imported, you get the 0.03 / kWh credit (or whatever the going rate is at that time) for the excess production.

Another piece of the true-up is reconciliation of the minimum monthly charge, but that is beyond the scope of your question, I think.