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  • J.P.M.
    Solar Fanatic
    • Aug 2013
    • 14920

    #91
    Originally posted by sensij
    It has been about a month since the last update. Lots of cloudy weather, even a little bit of rain a week or two ago, but not much change in the relationship.

    Any opinions on what I do with this next? Re-clean panel 1.1.7 and see if I can get it back to the 103% performance level? Clean panel 1.1.10 this time and see if the relationship flips?

    DailyComparison5.JPG
    Thanx again for the info.

    Before I start, I'll say I'm becoming more to the opinion that dew, some of it heavy, from marine layer and cooler radiant night sky temps. has the effect of some "cleaning" of my array to a greater degree than I might have once thought or suspected, with that dew, which often amounts to some small but measureable precipitation (~ 0.01" - 0.02 " when heavy), while not reducing the fouling level too much, tending to hold the fouling penalty at what might be described as a non increasing level of, for the period from ~ 09/26 to the present at about 6 % or so.

    For most of the summer, since 06/20 and after 70 continuous daily A.M. cleanings to get an estimate of array performance deterioration as I do 1X/yr., as well as an estimate of clean array performance from 36 clear sky instantaneous observation procedures as described here previously, my array's (uncleaned since 06/20) fouling tends to increase at a rate of ~ 1 % per week as before when it doesn't rain or if, as I seem to observe, there's no/not much overnight dew. With dew however, the fouling penalty, which has had single day values as high as 9 % or so, seems to have leveled off at an 11 day average value of ~ 5% - 6% or so, same as observed previously.

    Doing a heat/energy balance on my array and using estimated sky temps., wind data, dew points., ambient temps. and some convective and radiant teat transfer correlations yields an estimate that condensation rates on my array (Both top/bottom as observed BTW) that dew can amount to an equivelant of something like ~ 0.01" - 0.03" of measureable precip. overnight. My Davis rain gauge on the roof has measured 0.01" - 0.02 " during such events.

    With that said, if it was me, and it ain't, after looking at your data, I'd consider a couple of things.

    1.) I'd do a linear least squares fit of the ratios from your first cleaning on/about 09/26 (?) to now. I think that might give some indication/clue of how the cleaned panel fouls in relation to an already dirty panel, and/or how performance penalty from dirt on an array might, in your (and my BTW) case tends to level off due to some cleaning of the type I seem to have observed on my array as described above. That is, your 1.1.7. panel started cleaner (higher ratio) and the ratio on the graphs seems to be decreasing as f(time) in what looks like a somewhat consistent if not linear downward trend, but maybe flattening out lately as a higher order fit might tend to show, or maybe not. One of the things that might be telling/showing/pointing us to is that dirt on an array can, and in this case does appear to be somewhat transitory with the elements, with some of the pre 09/26 dirt being somewhat washed away by dew/precip. from the non cleaned 1.1.10 panel, while both panels were equally cleaned and fouled by weather since 09/26. I guess that may be saying no more than something like 12 months from now, the ratio will be zero (DUH !?), but the slope of that least squares fit and/or the shape of higher order fits may have some fouling rate information buried in them.

    2.) I think I understand the logic of reversing the cleaned vs, dirty panel. But, given all the other variables, and the problems of separating small fouling differences from the noise of about the same level as the date differences, as well as not seeing a lot to be gained by doing so, I'd skip that part.

    3.) FWIW, and as much of a PITA as it might be, I'd consider cleaning the array on a regular basis (1X/month ?) with the dirty panel remaining uncleaned (covered ?) during the cleaning process. That way, you'll have the data of an uncleaned panel that's continuously exposed only to added fouling (and cleaning) from the environment, for comparison to a panel and an array that's cleaned on a regular basis. If one goal of this exercise is to see how/if/what regular array cleaning will influence array performance, that process will probably yield good and useful information.

    Are we having fun yet ?

    Comment

    • steveholtam
      Member
      • Jul 2016
      • 89

      #92
      Could you intentionally foul a panel for quicker testing results? Maybe use the dust from a vacuum bag to sprinkle x amount of dust to obscure the panel? Or something like that.

      Comment

      • J.P.M.
        Solar Fanatic
        • Aug 2013
        • 14920

        #93
        Originally posted by steveholtam
        Could you intentionally foul a panel for quicker testing results? Maybe use the dust from a vacuum bag to sprinkle x amount of dust to obscure the panel? Or something like that.
        Depends on what you wanted to find out, but I'd say you'd have a hard time getting results that meant much or were useful.

        Here's why: Given the variability of the fouling rates as f(time), and the highly variable nature of the origin, the nature, and the usually non uniform distribution of dirt and other non wanted stuff over a panel (guano, for example), not to mention the wavelength dependence of the stuff, I'd think it pretty unlikely you'd get much information that would be useful in terms of it being representative of what's on an array, past, present or future.

        One of the seemingly few things people who study these things seem to agree on is that array fouling is highly location and time dependent. Dumping stuff on an array or a single panel and then measuring how it changes performance will tell you little about the nature or origin of stuff deposited over time, or any information about the rate of deposition, or how that rate may vary spatially or temporally.

        Hose the array 1X/month or so when it doesn't rain and, unless you live in a windy desert or next to an interstate highway or some other dirt choked place, accept a 2 - 5 % or so performance penalty that will vary in what are, at best, poorly understood ways.

        Comment

        • TundraLu
          Member
          • Oct 2017
          • 51

          #94
          Originally posted by sensij

          Ok, I think we are both at the same bottom line. I had edited my previous response while you were writing, digging in more to the idea of fouling reflectance and just running a sanity check on what the numbers I'm seeing might suggest. Conclusion being, it would be neat if more forum members would do this type of test in different climate zones with different types of fouling, and see if there are conditions that induce a more significant voltage effect. The OP's system, for example, might have been a good one if there had been side-by-side data, since there *appears* to be a larger effect than what I found, but perhaps the fouling there is of a different source and is able to generate a larger thermal impact.

          Man, this is a good thread. A lot of information on cleaning the panels. I also have a Commerical sized RO system I built and it produces 2.5 GPM. I use it to wash my vehicles, jet ski's, etc... It is awesome not having to dry your cars after washing them. So JPM is RO water good to clean the Solar panels with from your experience?

          Sensji what kind of panels and inverter are you running?
          Last edited by TundraLu; 01-08-2018, 05:46 PM.

          Comment

          • sensij
            Solar Fanatic
            • Sep 2014
            • 5074

            #95
            Originally posted by TundraLu


            Man this is a good thread. Sensji what kind of panels and inverter are you running?
            Canadian Solar CS6K-290MS panels and a SolarEdge 7600A-US inverter (w/ P300 optimizers).

            I haven't gotten back onto the roof in several months. There was some light rain on Dec 20, and we'll be getting our first heavier rain of the season today and tomorrow. At this point, it appears the relationship of the panels has drifted back to what it was pre-cleaning, so I'm not expecting much relative change following this precipitation. Once the storm system clears out on Wednesday, it might be fun to go up an re-clean 1.1.7, and see how much easily removable fouling was left intact by the rain.

            SEUpdate.JPG

            CS6P-260P/SE3000 - http://tiny.cc/ed5ozx

            Comment

            • TundraLu
              Member
              • Oct 2017
              • 51

              #96
              Originally posted by sensij

              Canadian Solar CS6K-290MS panels and a SolarEdge 7600A-US inverter (w/ P300 optimizers).

              How many panels in your setup?

              Comment

              • sensij
                Solar Fanatic
                • Sep 2014
                • 5074

                #97
                Originally posted by TundraLu


                How many panels in your setup?
                28.

                Here is the site on PVOutput, and the SolarEdge portal.
                CS6P-260P/SE3000 - http://tiny.cc/ed5ozx

                Comment

                • J.P.M.
                  Solar Fanatic
                  • Aug 2013
                  • 14920

                  #98
                  Originally posted by sensij

                  Canadian Solar CS6K-290MS panels and a SolarEdge 7600A-US inverter (w/ P300 optimizers).

                  I haven't gotten back onto the roof in several months. There was some light rain on Dec 20, and we'll be getting our first heavier rain of the season today and tomorrow. At this point, it appears the relationship of the panels has drifted back to what it was pre-cleaning, so I'm not expecting much relative change following this precipitation. Once the storm system clears out on Wednesday, it might be fun to go up an re-clean 1.1.7, and see how much easily removable fouling was left intact by the rain.

                  SEUpdate.JPG
                  Sensij: Consider not cleaning 1.1.7 immediately after the rain clears out on Weds. Waiting will do no harm, and you'll have some measure/estimate/SWAG of just how much fouling was removed by the rain. After a few days of data gathering after the rain, you can go clean to your heart's content and you'll probably get the same rain responsible cleaning data.

                  Except for some heavy dew, I've only had 4 days of 0.01" precip. as rain/mist. Turns out I'm beginning to think that my est. of 1 % deterioration in performance /week if it doesn't rain still might hold about correct for my location, But, while I've been of the opinion through observation that the rate of 1% or so seems to level off at ~ 6% performance penalty or so, I think that the heavy dew around here that shows up in the rain gauge as ~ 0.01" - 0.02" precip. may be having some cleaning effect on the array and be responsible for that leveling off of the fouling I think I'm noticing. Reason: I haven't cleaned the array since 06/21/2017 - on purpose. Right now, the numbers are showing the array at about a 9% -10 % performance penalty from fouling. December for me was quite dry with no morning dew at all, much less measureable, and the performance suffered about a 4 % loss going from ~6 % on 12/01 --->>> ~10 % on 12/31 - the 1% /week number. Nov. had 12 days of dew that measured as precip of ~ 0.01" to 0.02" each occasion. and the fouling stayed at ~ 6 % where it had been since ~ 10/01 and close to that level off/on since ~ 08/07 or so, +/- , and sort of following the pattern of the little rain and also that measureable dew.

                  A bit off topic but maybe useful to you and others w/a Davis Pro II if no more than a heads' up: My anemometer has been running slow for a couple of ~ a month or so and finally stopped functioning altogether ~~ 10 days ago. Apparently they last about 2 + yrs. or so then take a dump. I guess I got lucky w/ 4 + yrs. out of the original anemometer. Since it's also time for my 2 yr. irradiance sensor changeout/calibration - and this isn't a plug for vendors - but the best Davis part prices I've found these days are from an outfit called Sailsmarine, $102.50 for the anemometer, and $119.80 for the irradiance sensor + $37.50 freight. Best overall prices for orders > $100 (meaning free shipping) was from an outfit called Northern Marine, $112.00 for the anemometer, $ 125.000 for the sensor making it less overall than the Sailsmarine prices after accounting for shipping. Maybe you can find better if/when you service/reinstall and find you need need some refurbishment.

                  I'm also thinking about an ultrasonic anemometer, but they're a bit pricey at ~ $700 or so right now for something that looks compatibal w/ Davis. Got to do more homework.

                  Comment

                  • sensij
                    Solar Fanatic
                    • Sep 2014
                    • 5074

                    #99

                    Yeah, with a sunny weekend coming, waiting at least to Sunday night sounds like a better plan. Thanks for the tip on Sailsmarine... I originally bought my Davis gear from RainmanWeather. Current price there for the 6450 is $109.97 + $8.35 to ship. I've had it in my cart for some time, but held up on pulling the trigger when some clouds appeared on the horizon. More on that another time.
                    CS6P-260P/SE3000 - http://tiny.cc/ed5ozx

                    Comment

                    • sensij
                      Solar Fanatic
                      • Sep 2014
                      • 5074

                      Originally posted by J.P.M.

                      Except for some heavy dew, I've only had 4 days of 0.01" precip. as rain/mist. Turns out I'm beginning to think that my est. of 1 % deterioration in performance /week if it doesn't rain still might hold about correct for my location, But, while I've been of the opinion through observation that the rate of 1% or so seems to level off at ~ 6% performance penalty or so, I think that the heavy dew around here that shows up in the rain gauge as ~ 0.01" - 0.02" precip. may be having some cleaning effect on the array and be responsible for that leveling off of the fouling I think I'm noticing. Reason: I haven't cleaned the array since 06/21/2017 - on purpose. Right now, the numbers are showing the array at about a 9% -10 % performance penalty from fouling. December for me was quite dry with no morning dew at all, much less measureable, and the performance suffered about a 4 % loss going from ~6 % on 12/01 --->>> ~10 % on 12/31 - the 1% /week number. Nov. had 12 days of dew that measured as precip of ~ 0.01" to 0.02" each occasion. and the fouling stayed at ~ 6 % where it had been since ~ 10/01 and close to that level off/on since ~ 08/07 or so, +/- , and sort of following the pattern of the little rain and also that measureable dew.
                      Thank you for sharing this.
                      CS6P-260P/SE3000 - http://tiny.cc/ed5ozx

                      Comment

                      • J.P.M.
                        Solar Fanatic
                        • Aug 2013
                        • 14920

                        Originally posted by sensij

                        Thank you for sharing this.
                        You're welcome. Use it as your needs dictate.

                        Comment

                        • CharlieEscCA
                          Solar Fanatic
                          • Dec 2016
                          • 227

                          Hi all SD area friends, nice rain today. Just as a data point, I've given up on cleaning my ground mounted array (last rinsing off was late October) -- at least until maybe I get my April bill. Thank's to TOU (at least this past summer's worth), I will have a net $ credit left over at true-up (my April bill) despite using an estimated 1500 kWh more than my array produces over my first 12 months -- thus there is nothing to be gained by cleaning.

                          Of course, this all changes when I start a new true up cycle as the rates for the grandfathered TOU rates pretty much turns weekday solar production June through October into a one kWh to one kWh offset.

                          On another note, the VC project goes continues slowly -- hoping to have plans ready to begin the permit process sometime in March, which then likely lead to my current house going on the market late this year. I'm not entirely sure how the true up process works on the sale of a property, though I suspect true up happens when I terminate service and the purchaser starts their own new true-up period.
                          Last edited by CharlieEscCA; 01-09-2018, 07:31 PM.
                          8.6 kWp roof (SE 7600 and 28 panels)

                          Comment

                          • J.P.M.
                            Solar Fanatic
                            • Aug 2013
                            • 14920

                            Originally posted by CharlieEscCA
                            Hi all SD area friends, nice rain today. Just as a data point, I've given up on cleaning my ground mounted array (last rinsing off was late October) -- at least until maybe I get my April bill. Thank's to TOU (at least this past summer's worth), I will have a net $ credit left over at true-up (my April bill) despite using an estimated 1500 kWh more than my array produces over my first 12 months -- thus there is nothing to be gained by cleaning.

                            Of course, this all changes when I start a new true up cycle as the rates for the grandfather period pretty turn weekday solar production June through October into a one kWh to one kWh offset.

                            On another note, the VC project goes continues slowly -- hoping to have plans ready to begin the permit process sometime in March, which then likely lead to my current house going on the market late this year. I'm not entirely sure how the true up process works on the sale of a property, though I suspect true up happens when I terminate service and the purchaser starts their own new true-up period.
                            Charlie: Thanx for the update.

                            I'd think of any extra excess generation/$$ credit over/above any dirty excess generation as found money, maybe enough to buy a 6 pack as a reward after cleaning a dirty array, provided you drink before the sun gets high enough in the A.M., but that's NOMB.

                            Don't know for sure but I'd think, and agreeing with you, that excess generation would be part of account settlement.

                            Comment

                            • CharlieEscCA
                              Solar Fanatic
                              • Dec 2016
                              • 227

                              Originally posted by J.P.M.

                              Charlie: Thanx for the update.

                              I'd think of any extra excess generation/$$ credit over/above any dirty excess generation as found money, maybe enough to buy a 6 pack as a reward after cleaning a dirty array, provided you drink before the sun gets high enough in the A.M., but that's NOMB.

                              Don't know for sure but I'd think, and agreeing with you, that excess generation would be part of account settlement.
                              I probably wasn't clear. I'm going to have enough $ credit to only pay minimum monthly amounts + NBC for power pulled from the "grid" (the most cost effective battery in the world), and have no excess kWh of production (due to winter sun position my generation is terrible until the sun clears my eucalyptus trees, where as late spring / summer / early fall the trees are not an issue). I'm likely going to be somewhere around 2000 to 2500 kWh under my "guaranteed" production. I will likely have a discussion with the vendor about an extra credit if I use them for solar at the new house.

                              But, any event, I'm still very happy with the system. I have a very detailed spreadsheet with every day consumption and use, and it's looking like on SDGE tiered tariff I would have been looking at approximately $3950 to $4100 for the 12 months against what will likely be a true-up of about $130 after the two climate credits. In terms of presenting what the system can contribute to the next owner, I'll just provide them with a spreadsheet to show the prior year's kWh generation and a way to then fill in the value of that generation and yield a "generation $" value amount that will offset whatever their use will be, which will obviously be different than my use.
                              8.6 kWp roof (SE 7600 and 28 panels)

                              Comment

                              • J.P.M.
                                Solar Fanatic
                                • Aug 2013
                                • 14920

                                Originally posted by CharlieEscCA

                                I probably wasn't clear. I'm going to have enough $ credit to only pay minimum monthly amounts + NBC for power pulled from the "grid" (the most cost effective battery in the world), and have no excess kWh of production (due to winter sun position my generation is terrible until the sun clears my eucalyptus trees, where as late spring / summer / early fall the trees are not an issue). I'm likely going to be somewhere around 2000 to 2500 kWh under my "guaranteed" production. I will likely have a discussion with the vendor about an extra credit if I use them for solar at the new house.

                                But, any event, I'm still very happy with the system. I have a very detailed spreadsheet with every day consumption and use, and it's looking like on SDGE tiered tariff I would have been looking at approximately $3950 to $4100 for the 12 months against what will likely be a true-up of about $130 after the two climate credits. In terms of presenting what the system can contribute to the next owner, I'll just provide them with a spreadsheet to show the prior year's kWh generation and a way to then fill in the value of that generation and yield a "generation $" value amount that will offset whatever their use will be, which will obviously be different than my use.
                                Understood. Thank you for the clarification.

                                I'd share the generation, usage and bills both pre and post PV install and tell them their bills will be different. I'd bet the pre/pot numbers can be a pretty impressive comparison.

                                The daily reads /number crunch can be habit forming, no ? Bet you'll find the numbers can be a decent sales tool.

                                Comment

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