Solar system in Twin Cities, MN

[sunbeagle]

I've been looking into rooftop solar for a few months, reading the Dummies book, PVWatts and the posts from the top responders here (thanks), have gotten several quotes and the longer I look, the more dubious it seems.

I just got this contract to sign from the company that supposedly is the top installer here by number. 6+kW system, bit less than $3 before the tax credit. This is the contract:
Panels: JA Solar 295 Model: 295 Number: 22
Inverter: SolarEdge
Racking: Roof Mount

That's it. Install complete date is an estimate 90 from POCO rebate acceptance with a motherload of "out of our control" caveats. Reviews list up to 8 months because they are "busy".
Every oral and email sales promise is voided by the contract.
If I wanted specifics I had to pay $500 for their designer to come out. I was debating getting micros, that version was Inverters: Enphase. Was promised Envoy and IQ6 in email. (void per contract)
I asked about our electrical panel upgrading because I've been told it's out of code. The reply "The reason I did not look at your electrical system is because it does not matter what size service you have, as long as it is breakers we are able to either take up space on your service or do a direct line tap."
They want 70% up front and the rest after inspection by city which would be before the POCO inspection and flipping switch.

Is this warranty going to cover anything? and the only mention of time is earlier in the contract - 60 days to fix an install issue.
Limited Warranty: The PV System is covered by three (3) different limited warranties. All products are warranted to perform in accordance with the manufacturers'
published specifications, provided that the equipment is operated with the manufacturers' operating instructions. The warranty covers all components of the generating
system against breakdown or degradation specified by the manufacturers. During the first ____ months after the system is inspected, We will repair or, at our option,
replace any defective part of the system. The limited warranty does not apply if we determine upon inspection that any of the following conditions caused the need for
service: A. damage resulting from accidents, acts of god, alterations or misuse; B. you fail to properly follow the operating instructions; C. ordinary maintenance or wear and
tear; D. alterations to your premises; or E. alterations to the system made at your request, or made necessary by a change to your premises, damage to Your premises of
the system, or for any other cause beyond our control. We will not perform warranty services on any device not installed by us.

So, am I insane to think signing this is insane? Seems like a license to install whatever, whenever. But apparently many dozens of people have gone along with "the way we do business."

[max2k]

...

So, am I insane to think signing this is insane? Seems like a license to install whatever, whenever. But apparently many dozens of people have gone along with "the way we do business."

What you're signing is what you're going to get. I think you better clarify contract wording to your liking and if not- find another vendor even at slightly higher price as having min headaches at the end is priceless.

[J.P.M.]

First: I wouldn't sign anything until I got more educated about what you're doing and why. Usual spiel : Download and read :"Solar Power Your Home for Dummies", a free net download or ~ $25 for an updated hardcopy at bookstores or Amazon.

After the read, get your utility use - not what you pay, but what you use in kWh/yr., by month or billing period. Then, learn how you pay for electricity. pricing structures will usually impact the most cost effective sizing.

Then, download something called PVWatts from the NREL. It's a solar PV modeling program for homeowners. Read the help/info screens a couple of times, make a few runs and together with all the other information you have just learned, decide what size system you might want. Then, with your goals and size preliminarily set, call some honest vendors, give them your loads and ask for a quote. Do not share prices with vendors and do not impress them with your knowledge - among other things, you want to learn how much they know - or don't know - not impress them with your knowledge.

Come back here and fill in knowledge gaps. Evaluate bids and choose a vendor with care. Who does the work is at least as important as the equipment selection.

Four final suggestions: Don't buy Sunpower equipment - it's good stuff but overpriced for what you get. Don't lease unless you don't pay taxes - especially from the big national outfits. Most of the time the quality and service leaves a lot to be desired. Get your roof inspected and serviced as necessary. PV can last a long time. Give your roof the best chance possible to last as long as the PV. Lastly, plan on how you will access all the panels, along with how you will handle snow buildup and removal.

Welcome to the neighborhood.

[sunbeagle]

Yeah, have done all that. i guess I'm somewhat disappointed in the number and quality of installers here. The company above has 100+ solar reviews but their contract terms not specifying what they install, basically open-ended and a $6000 fee if we want to drop them if they haven't started in 6 months. Got another company with a 1-year install warranty, another pushing m250s still with no discount for older generation stuff plus dirt cheap panels. Not sure it's worth this with the production we get here.
Anyone have a MN installer to recommend?

[CharlieEscCA]

Yeah, have done all that. i guess I'm somewhat disappointed in the number and quality of installers here. The company above has 100+ solar reviews but their contract terms not specifying what they install, basically open-ended and a $6000 fee if we want to drop them if they haven't started in 6 months. Got another company with a 1-year install warranty, another pushing m250s still with no discount for older generation stuff plus dirt cheap panels. Not sure it's worth this with the production we get here.
Anyone have a MN installer to recommend?

What are your electric rates? What's the estimated production for the proposed system generate per PVWatts? What is the cost to you after all credits? How long are you going to be living there? What is your estimated payback period? How is your roof for snow?

It may well be that solar doesn't make sound economic sense, in which case whether there are good installers or not may be moot.

[sunbeagle]

Payback is about 7-7.5 years. I figured about 8.4kW AC. 11-12 cents per kWh. Get 10 years of 8c subsidy from the POCO. Economically it should be fine if there's an installer who gives a clear contract, decent install warranty, and not using cheaper stuff at higher prices. Those are all things I see others getting here but I haven't yet found one that does all three. There is much less margin for error here.

[max2k]

Payback is about 7-7.5 years. I figured about 8.4kW AC. 11-12 cents per kWh. Get 10 years of 8c subsidy from the POCO. Economically it should be fine if there's an installer who gives a clear contract, decent install warranty, and not using cheaper stuff at higher prices. Those are all things I see others getting here but I haven't yet found one that does all three. There is much less margin for error here.

what year production PVWatts reports for your location/roof orientation? What is your year consumption in kWh? 8.4 kW is on a high side in my books but may be it's just 'rating' and PVWatts would say 5,000 kWh / year for such system at your place.

For example, such system at my place would produce 13-14,000 kWh / year which significantly exceeds my needs meaning I need about 30% smaller system. YMMV.

[J.P.M.]

Payback is about 7-7.5 years. I figured about 8.4kW AC. 11-12 cents per kWh. Get 10 years of 8c subsidy from the POCO. Economically it should be fine if there's an installer who gives a clear contract, decent install warranty, and not using cheaper stuff at higher prices. Those are all things I see others getting here but I haven't yet found one that does all three. There is much less margin for error here.

a 40 deg. tilt, south facing system in the twin cities will probably yield about ~ 1,350 - 1,400 kWh/yr. per installed STC kW, less any production deducts for snow cover and shading. @ $0.08 subsidy --->>> ~ $110/yr. per installed STC kW, or less, depending on shading/snow cover/orientation.. At, say, $3.00 * .7 = $2.10/STC W, or $2,100/STC kW, that's looking like a pretty long payback most any way you cut it.

[bcroe]

a 40 deg. tilt, south facing system in the twin cities will probably yield about ~ 1,350 - 1,400 kWh/yr. per installed STC kW, less any production deducts for snow cover and shading. @ $0.08 subsidy --->>> ~ $110/yr. per installed STC kW, or less, depending on shading/snow cover/orientation.. At, say, $3.00 * .7 = $2.10/STC W, or $2,100/STC kW, that's looking like a pretty long payback most any way you cut it.

Production during the snow season is a smaller portion, but most of it could be lost to
snow if the panels can't be easily reached for snow removal (on a roof). Bruce Roe

[J.P.M.]

Production during the snow season is a smaller portion, but most of it could be lost to
snow if the panels can't be easily reached for snow removal (on a roof). Bruce Roe

Bruce: I'm not in snow country any more, but I suspect lost production from snow cover is a bigger deal than most vendors want to talk about.

[sunbeagle]

Sorry typo'd before 8.4MWh AC not kW. Tilt is 23-26. Single story rambler so snow removal is a 12-ft ladder and broom. In any case the climate here is not what it was. As a kid there was a Halloween with a foot of snow. This past winter I think it was end of Nov, first week of Dec when we had any real snow that stuck and that was maybe 3". Over the past few years we've had real questions of brown Christmases.That didn't happen 20 years ago. Winter is shorter with less snow but it's offset now by much wetter spring and summer. What's a reasonable loss in PVWatts real world? Size & production of various quotes range 6.2-6.9kWDC, 8-8.9MWhAC.

[bcroe]

I'm not so far from you in northern IL. Last winter was not a good example; after Dec, my 44" snow blower
just sat unused for so many weeks I needed to connect the battery maintainer. A winter earlier this decade
I was out before sunrise nearly 2 dozen times making sure my ground mount would produce. My feeling is
most rooftop production after snow is a write off. Bruce Roe

[CharlieEscCA]

...
that's looking like a pretty long payback most any way you cut it.

Bingo.

[sunbeagle]

a 40 deg. tilt, south facing system in the twin cities will probably yield about ~ 1,350 - 1,400 kWh/yr. per installed STC kW, less any production deducts for snow cover and shading. @ $0.08 subsidy --->>> ~ $110/yr. per installed STC kW, or less, depending on shading/snow cover/orientation.. At, say, $3.00 * .7 = $2.10/STC W, or $2,100/STC kW, that's looking like a pretty long payback most any way you cut it.

The .08 is just the rewards subsidy bonus which is a 10-year contract. You aren't including the 11c-12c actual power cost. Payback should be after year 7. Xcel energy has given out 4.5MW DC in subsidy contracts this year so somebody is installing here who thinks it's worthwhile.

[foo1bar]

a 40 deg. tilt, south facing system in the twin cities will probably yield about ~ 1,350 - 1,400 kWh/yr. per installed STC kW, less any production deducts for snow cover and shading. @ $0.08 subsidy --->>> ~ $110/yr. per installed STC kW, or less, depending on shading/snow cover/orientation.. At, say, $3.00 * .7 = $2.10/STC W, or $2,100/STC kW, that's looking like a pretty long payback most any way you cut it.

$2100 up front cost (after tax) for 1 kW of installed capacity. (Could be potentially less since prices are still coming down. And there are some MN-specific rebates I think which OP may or may not be able to get.)

$110/year * 8 years = $880 # guesstimate; using same numbers you have above
$.10/kwh * 1350kwh/yr * 8 years == $1080 # guesstimate; electricity may be more or less than $.10/kwh and production could be lower or higher.

So not reaching "breakeven" after 8 years - but getting close.
Somewhere around 8.5 years. Maybe 9.
Of course the above has a bunch of assumptions.

8.5 years is a longer payback. So I'd definitely recommend looking at those assumptions more closely and recalculating.
If it were >10 years I'd think it's too long if it were me. Even at >7 years I would want to look really really closely. But other people have other viewpoints for their investments. And if someone else says they think the threshold for themselves would be 6 years (or 15 years), they're certainly entitled to their viewpoint and to spend their money how they choose.