Buying home - with APS TA EPR-6 service plan.

[jschner]

I'm in the process of buying a home in Yuma, AZ with owner owned solar. I'm familiar with solar and net metering in California, but not with the APS billing.

I had the seller send me a couple bills. It is an APS Time Adv 7pm-Noon EPR-6 service plan which I'm trying to wrap my head around. I have only a little to go for the solar system. Seller bought the home just a few years ago and has no idea of equipment or sizing. There are 33 panels facing due South about 25 to 30 degree tilt with a Sunny Boy 7000US inverter, white cover. No shading at all. My guess is the system is at least over 4 years old and the panels are around 200W or 210W for a 6.5kW or 6.9kW system. Doing an inspection next week and I hope to figure that out.

I have attached this month's bill and my first question is how do I figure the total monthly solar production kWs from the bill?

Once I know the total kW produced, I'll look it up online with the calculators, but off hand does this system seem to be producing correctly for a 6.5kW to 6.9kW system with the above stats?

Also, the house is a 2700sqft block home built in 2009 and I have no idea what the kW usage will be for our family of 5 with a stay at home wife and teens. Probably very high with AC on 24/7 but set higher to 78 or so and a pool pump. With that, what is the trick with the Time Adv EPR-6 plan in making it work? Should I consider a different plan?

aps bill july.JPGaps bill mar.JPG

[ButchDeal]

There is no way of telling the generation from a net meter bill alone.

[dashadeaux]

jschner,

Butchdeal is spot on, you can't determine how many kWhs the system is generating by using only the APS bill, nor can you determine whether or not the system is performing well. If you can get the same info for the Jan-May bills as well, I can give you a much better picture of where you stand.

The bill you attached is for the previous owner, and indicates the system is not generating enough kWhs for you to consider switching from the 12-7 TOU Time Advantage plan to the Standard plan. The 3rd and last rate choice you have is the 12-7 Combined Advantage plan, which has a Demand Charge, and you definitely want to stay away from that one.

The statement I make about the system not generating enough power comes from the "Environmental benefits surcharge" line item. That charge being not $0 and greater than $3.41 tells me two things. First, according to APS the system was installed after 7/1/2012, and second there are not enough solar excess kWhs in the Adjustor bank to cover Adjustor charges for the June bill. If the Adjustor solar kWh bank is empty in the month of June and the system has been functional all year, the solar system isn't generating enough kWhs to even remotely entertain the idea of switching to the Standard plan.

Also the absence of an LFCR-DG Adjustor line item indicates solar was "probably" installed prior to 12/31/2013, but it could have been installed as late as 6/30/2014.

If you are lucky, the system was installed after 12/31/2013. Late in 2013 APS stopped paying the per watt incentive (aka the UFI), and without that incentive payment the owner of the system (now you) "owns" the rights to the SRECs that system generates. Ownership of those SRECs may prove valuable in the near future for Western Region (AZ) solar pholks. We're working on finding a way to convert those SRECs into cash.

Current news:
APS is attempting to gut Net Metering (the EPR-6 on your bill) via the Settlement Agreement awaiting Corporation Commission approval. The obvious out in the open effort is the documented changes APS is proposing for "new" solar customers, but there is a sinister part of the Settlement Agreement that isn't so out in the open, and that part will have negative impact on grandfathered (Legacy) solar customers. I refer to section 8 of the Agreement titled "Transfer of Items From Adjustment Mechanisms To Base Rates". This section explains that APS wants to move costs associated with the procurement and delivery of kWhs to the customer's home, from kWh based Adjustors to somewhere in the Base Rate. While these costs reside in the Adjustors, "EVERY SINGLE" kWh generated can be used to offset those charges. APS hasn't indicated where in the Base Rate those costs will end up, and depending on where they end up, "Adjustor Only" credits currently enjoyed by EPR-6 pholks could vanish. That's basically a 6 cent loss for every kWh reconciled in the month of December.
- If those kWh charges end up in the Fixed part of Base Rate, kiss their associated EPR-6 crediting goodbye.
- If those charges are lumped in with kWh Generation, kiss Adjustor Only crediting goodbye.
- APS isn't proposing a new kWh Charge for any of the Legacy ( the 3 choices you have today) Rates, so it looks like Legacy EPR-6 is going to take a hit.

[cebury]

From the little I've seen around this forum, once solar became a visible threat to the utilities, APS became dead set on killing it off at every turn. I guess they have to protect their business interests, just like San Diego Gas & Electric does here in CA.

[dashadeaux]

Cebury,

I know nothing of the Ca history, but suspect it is very similar to Arizona.

Responsibility for the current mess AZ is in with Distributed Solar, both residential and commercial, lies squarely on the shoulders of APS and other electric utilities. Long before (mid 1990's) "Net Metering" became the issue it is today, the then Arizona Corporations Commission (ACC) extended an invitation to APS, TEP, and other electric utilities to get in front of Distributed Generation (DG), and put in place the plan for how it will be handled. Makes sense to me, after all it is the utility that "understands" all aspects of the kWh. Not a single utility stepped up to the plate, indeed they kept their heads buried until the ACC said, here's how you are going to handle DG... oooops too late.

In 2012 I wasn't concerned about all this, but did see how good an investment a rooftop solar system was (and can still be). Invested $12.5K in a system, ROI occurred in the 53rd month, today I save $250 monthly on that $12.5K investment. Hard to beat that in the markets.

My ire was raised in mid 2013 when the CEO of APS labelled me a drain on society because I was an APS solar customer! Say WHAT!!! You guys are "THE" ones that encouraged me to get rooftop solar!

Topping all this off is the ACC putting in place an ROI cap of 10% for Pinnacle West's (parent of APS) investment in APS. How is it possible that a utility being hammered by DG, needs to have an ROI cap put in place "AFTER" the onset of "DG Net Metering"!!! ?

[J.P.M.]

Cebury,

I know nothing of the Ca history, but suspect it is very similar to Arizona.

Responsibility for the current mess AZ is in with Distributed Solar, both residential and commercial, lies squarely on the shoulders of APS and other electric utilities. Long before (mid 1990's) "Net Metering" became the issue it is today, the then Arizona Corporations Commission (ACC) extended an invitation to APS, TEP, and other electric utilities to get in front of Distributed Generation (DG), and put in place the plan for how it will be handled. Makes sense to me, after all it is the utility that "understands" all aspects of the kWh. Not a single utility stepped up to the plate, indeed they kept their heads buried until the ACC said, here's how you are going to handle DG... oooops too late.

In 2012 I wasn't concerned about all this, but did see how good an investment a rooftop solar system was (and can still be). Invested $12.5K in a system, ROI occurred in the 53rd month, today I save $250 monthly on that $12.5K investment. Hard to beat that in the markets.

My ire was raised in mid 2013 when the CEO of APS labelled me a drain on society because I was an APS solar customer! Say WHAT!!! You guys are "THE" ones that encouraged me to get rooftop solar!

Topping all this off is the ACC putting in place an ROI cap of 10% for Pinnacle West's (parent of APS) investment in APS. How is it possible that a utility being hammered by DG, needs to have an ROI cap put in place "AFTER" the onset of "DG Net Metering"!!! ?

As a concept, some of us in the early 2000's were suggesting that it might be a wise move if the electric power distribution business, along w/the power generation business got into and controlled the solar PV mfg. business. Seems like a lot of the B.S. could have been avoided. Same might be said today of the energy storage business.

[dashadeaux]

Jschner,

Just a heads up. The solar benefit the previous owner had accumulated this year, goes away when they close their APS account.

The solar system isn't generating enough On and Off Peak at this point to offset all Generation Charges, so expect your APS bills to be higher than the previous owner for July-Sept.

[dashadeaux]

J.P.M,

Not sure where I stand on that concept. Sounds like a good thing, but greed gets in the way.

I am hoping the energy storage players can develop a batt system that will benefit a residential customer, so far they've failed to reach break even. A 10 kWh batt installed on my home and charged by the various means available, fails to save enough in utility power costs to pay for itself before the batt dies. And that's calculating the effects at 100% efficiency.

[J.P.M.]

J.P.M,

Not sure where I stand on that concept. Sounds like a good thing, but greed gets in the way.

I am hoping the energy storage players can develop a batt system that will benefit a residential customer, so far they've failed to reach break even. A 10 kWh batt installed on my home and charged by the various means available, fails to save enough in utility power costs to pay for itself before the batt dies. And that's calculating the effects at 100% efficiency.

And the same greed can get in the way as much for current energy storage developers/peddlers as it does for POCOs. Ain't nobody clean in this. It'll be a while before home energy storage becomes economically viable, but I'd expect a battle from POCOs and those with a vested interest in the status quo to not be helpful along the way to those viewed as changing things they make money from. If nothing else, and borrowing something Lyndon Johnson said, giving POCOs a piece of the energy storage action means they're inside the tent with you pissing out instead of on the outside pissing in. I'm not hopeful of POCOs getting in the battery business, but I muse what the R.E. picture would look like, particularly the PV end of it, if POCOs etc. had got on board w/ PV ownership, say, 20 years ago, and then I look at the energy storage potential today and wonder.

[dashadeaux]

And the same greed can get in the way as much for current energy storage developers/peddlers as it does for POCOs. Ain't nobody clean in this. It'll be a while before home energy storage becomes economically viable, but I'd expect a battle from POCOs and those with a vested interest in the status quo to not be helpful along the way to those viewed as changing things they make money from. If nothing else, and borrowing something Lyndon Johnson said, giving POCOs a piece of the energy storage action means they're inside the tent with you pissing out instead of on the outside pissing in. I'm not hopeful of POCOs getting in the battery business, but I muse what the R.E. picture would look like, particularly the PV end of it, if POCOs etc. had got on board w/ PV ownership, say, 20 years ago, and then I look at the energy storage potential today and wonder.

I can't disagree with what you post. WE would be sooo much further along had all parties agreed to work for the cause.

[jschner]

jschner,

Butchdeal is spot on, you can't determine how many kWhs the system is generating by using only the APS bill, nor can you determine whether or not the system is performing well. If you can get the same info for the Jan-May bills as well, I can give you a much better picture of where you stand.
.

Thanks, good info, not all that I want to hear, but it is what it is. I only have the March bill covering most of Feb. which I have added to the initial post. Hopefully something useful can be gleamed there. One thing I forgot to mention is the sellers do have a Chevy Volt they charge. Not sure of usage on that but it looks to be a daily driver and I wonder if that could be eating away at the credits? Too little info to know.

The seller bought the home in April of 2014 according to Zillow and he says the solar was already on it. I'll look at the production date on the inverter and see if that gives a clue and inquire about the car and usage. In the end I'm still getting the home and will be the new owner of the PV system. Hopefully, it can offset things enough to be worth while and not be just a roof decoration with maintenance costs.

[jschner]

Jschner,

Just a heads up. The solar benefit the previous owner had accumulated this year, goes away when they close their APS account.

The solar system isn't generating enough On and Off Peak at this point to offset all Generation Charges, so expect your APS bills to be higher than the previous owner for July-Sept.

Thanks, I figure it was too small for my family needs and the size of the home, but hey, it might offset things a little. To the owner's credit, he did mention his bills are usually around $100 in the summer which would be higher than the bills provided.

[dashadeaux]

Thanks, good info, not all that I want to hear, but it is what it is. I only have the March bill covering most of Feb. which I have added to the initial post. Hopefully something useful can be gleamed there. One thing I forgot to mention is the sellers do have a Chevy Volt they charge. Not sure of usage on that but it looks to be a daily driver and I wonder if that could be eating away at the credits? Too little info to know.

The seller bought the home in April of 2014 according to Zillow and he says the solar was already on it. I'll look at the production date on the inverter and see if that gives a clue and inquire about the car and usage. In the end I'm still getting the home and will be the new owner of the PV system. Hopefully, it can offset things enough to be worth while and not be just a roof decoration with maintenance costs.

With charging of the Chevy Volt out of the picture, the view of how much of the homes needs the system is providing changes, and possibly a lot.

I've been assisting APS solar customers with the decision to switch for years, and have developed this basic assumption when it comes to "doubtfully" switching rates:

• If the decision was wrong, and you end up on TOU, the monetary hit "is" small.
• If the decision was wrong, and you end up on Standard, the monetary hit "can" be significant.

Also by remaining on the TOU plan, a year down the road you will be able to accurately evaluate switching to Standard, not true if you are on Standard for the year.

Knowing the DC kW capacity the system was sold at is important when evaluating the health of the system, I encourage you to get that info and it should be in the doc's associated with getting that system connected to the grid.

P.S. APS has Winter and Summer charges for all rate plans. Summer is May 1st thru Oct 31st. There is a little known issue with the Win-Sum & Sum-Win transition. It has to do with the date the meter is read. If the bill that contains your April usage, closes on May 2nd or later, the April usage is billed at the Summer rate. There is no guarantee the reverse will occur in the Oct-Nov transition. Every little bit helps.

The date the meter is read varies with the reading cycle. Cycle 1 being the most likely to hit this problem, and cycle 19 being the least likely. Unfortunately the APS link for getting the reading dates for each cycle has been non-functional for some time now. You can change the cycle by contacting APS, and perhaps they'll even tell you the dates. To be sure, you want a cycle that reads April usage before May 2nd.

[jschner]

It looks like EPRS-6 will be a fairly safe plan for us until we figure things out. I will watch for the cycles too. I could not figure out the size of the panels, but if the inverter is any indication it was manufactured 05/2009 so it appears the system was put on the house toward the end of 2009. Any word on the reliability of the Sunnyboy SB7000US inverters that are this age?

[dashadeaux]

It looks like EPRS-6 will be a fairly safe plan for us until we figure things out. I will watch for the cycles too. I could not figure out the size of the panels, but if the inverter is any indication it was manufactured 05/2009 so it appears the system was put on the house toward the end of 2009. Any word on the reliability of the Sunnyboy SB7000US inverters that are this age?

Just to be clear. EPR-6 is the Net Metering rate rider. It is paired with what ever rate an APS customer is on.

I appreciate your inclusion of the Feb 2017 bill, it definitely proves your system was installed prior to 7/1/2012. In the June bill, the net Adjustor kWhs are 505, and that is too high to determine if the REAC-1 charge was levied. In Feb the net Adjustor kWhs are 208, low enough to show the REAC-1 charge was "not" levied. The REAC-1 charge only applies to solar systems going online after 7/1/2012. Being installed before mid 2012, the chances are almost 100% that APS paid an incentive to the original owner, so SRECs are probably a dead end for you.

If you're really curious, APS maintains a data base of solar systems connected to the grid. It isn't real easy to locate your system in the database, but if you want to kill a little time, it can be informative to look around. In the 2009-2012 time frame there probably weren't that many residential systems getting installed for your zip code. When you locate your system in that document, you'll get info about who did the install, the size, etc.

Your Meter Reading Cycle # is located at the top right hand side of page 3.

The Sunny Boy 7000us Inverter is a good performer with an expected efficiency of 96%, and can handle up to 8.5 kW STC. The only negative I see with it is the derating temp is 113 degrees, which is below the ambient temp in summer. The Inverter may start clipping it's output when it gets really hot... and just when you need max power most.

In your home purchase closing docs, should be an APS Interconnect Agreement, if you don't have it, get after your realty agent... ASAP. That Interconnect Agreement "is" the clock starter for your pending Grandfathered status, it also has the exact date the system went online.

P.S. I looked for the APS data base I mentioned and it has disappeared! I have a copy of that data base, taken early in 2016. If I knew your ZIP code, and the DC watts you panels are putting out on a sunny day, I could narrow the list of possible installers to about 20... it all depends on the zip code and DC watts.

Cheers