Study on NEM 1.0 vs. NEM 2.0

[J.P.M.]

As to JPM...I'm not afraid to do battle with SCE on this. I've had one hangup (by them), one answer confirming the days x $0.329, and one answer just flatly stating the bill was calculated correctly (the last two answering machine messages after 1/2 hour+ phone calls). I worked as an Electrical Engineer for Hughes Aircraft Company and then Boeing (bought what was left of Hughes in 2000) for 31 years and am now on my 4th year of teaching middle school math and thus on my 5th year of Algebra when one includes the one I had 45 years ago! I can do the math!

Will post again after my next telcon with SCE. There's absolutely no justification for non-transparency on billing issues.

I appreciate your forbearance and persistence, and strongly agree with your opinions on the I've got a secret games going on.

My experience with both energy reduction, and separately, dealing with my POCO (SDG & E) is similar to yours. Contrary to being intimidated or frustrated by them, I get along great with the folks on the phone, even after (I believe) I was one of the PITA's (or maybe coincidental with CPUC mandate - don't know or care which) that got them to make most prior residential rate schedules much more readily available back in 2010 or so. Prior to that, getting such info was like getting root canal work through the balloon knot. Anyway, I always tried to be friendly with those folks, and if not friendly, at least professional in dealing with them. They never hung up on me. Unfortunately, I've found them less than equal to the task of helping me and others make sense of what they are writing/publishing. They're kind of like Bevis and Butthead. So, I don't waste my time.

So, while I've got and continue to acquire new info, until I can be certain I understand it with enough confidence to explain it to others, I'll hold my fingers on those matters save the very basic and dummy proof variety.

On the energy reduction scene, your info looks quite familiar and brought a smile, particularly the ice/thermal mass scheme. I got my first home's elec. usage to ~ 3800 kWh/yr., 2 people, in Buffalo back in the early '80's with a bunch of tricks such as those. Usage is now about 6,500 - 7,200 kWh/yr. now in So. CA with ~ 1,100 of those going for A/C for 3,200 ft.^2 in inland San Diego Co.

Welcome to the neighborhood.

[sensij]

Back to the point though, my first two months I've incurred $ credits. The first month I produced 59 kWh more than used, the 2nd month used 66 more than produced. Both were positive $ credits due to TOU crediting. I'm $94 positive after two months. Thus I should be ONLY looking at minimum charge calculation.

You are misunderstanding some of the basics of how net metering tariffs are administered. You can *not* just look at the minimum charge calculation and expect it to make sense, because you need to account for the actual credits you produce and how those credits are depleted. Have you done the math to derive how the $94 positive over two months matches up with the 125 net kWh exported? That calculation may not be as independent from the minimum bill as you are thinking.

[oldguy]

Is Edge not a good browser for this site? I'm constantly getting kicked out midsentence. Lil' frustrating...

For my two bills it very much appears that the "bal of minimum charge" is not using the DWR Bond and yet it is adding it in the totals column. My two bills have been off by exactly the DWR Bond NBC -- the "franchise fee" (which was $0.08 and 0.11 on my first two bills). I think it's a coding error.

I'm very pleasant with all CSRs. I know that was most likely not their dream job growing up. The hang up on the first call was on my end as I was in queue but never talked to a CSR but went directly to their "how did our CSR do?" survey. I think the CSR must have pushed the wrong button The other two calls were very pleasant both ending with we will get back to you.

I'm curious if anyone else in SCE territory has the same billing issue. They would have to be overproducing, $-wise, such that they would end up in the min. monthly bill calculation. If their bill mimics mine (sort of not counting DWR and then counting) then I think it's a coding error on SCE's part...and one I'd like them to fix pronto.

BTW, my net exported is not 125kWh but 66 from grid in Oct/Nov and 59 to grid in Sept/Oct...thus a net 7 from grid.

[Mike90250]

Nothing from Microsuft has been good since win 8.1 (IMHO) Anything inserting "special characters" into the text (like how some 5pamm bots use tricks to embed links into messages) will get kicked out. Sorry, it's the way the sys op keeps the spam away

[J.P.M.]

Is Edge not a good browser for this site? I'm constantly getting kicked out midsentence. Lil' frustrating...

For my two bills it very much appears that the "bal of minimum charge" is not using the DWR Bond and yet it is adding it in the totals column. My two bills have been off by exactly the DWR Bond NBC -- the "franchise fee" (which was $0.08 and 0.11 on my first two bills). I think it's a coding error.

I'm very pleasant with all CSRs. I know that was most likely not their dream job growing up. The hang up on the first call was on my end as I was in queue but never talked to a CSR but went directly to their "how did our CSR do?" survey. I think the CSR must have pushed the wrong button The other two calls were very pleasant both ending with we will get back to you.

I'm curious if anyone else in SCE territory has the same billing issue. They would have to be overproducing, $-wise, such that they would end up in the min. monthly bill calculation. If their bill mimics mine (sort of not counting DWR and then counting) then I think it's a coding error on SCE's part...and one I'd like them to fix pronto.

BTW, my net exported is not 125kWh but 66 from grid in Oct/Nov and 59 to grid in Sept/Oct...thus a net 7 from grid.

Just a thought or two: When a billing period's dates include a changeover from summer to winter rates (or vice versa) things can get more confusing. Also, if you're using an hourly spreadsheet for comparison with a bill, don't forget the DST adjustment.

Thirdly, and I'm no way sure of this, there also may have been an SCE rate change on 11/01 that would muddy things even more.

[sensij]

I'm curious if anyone else in SCE territory has the same billing issue. They would have to be overproducing, $-wise, such that they would end up in the min. monthly bill calculation. If their bill mimics mine (sort of not counting DWR and then counting) then I think it's a coding error on SCE's part...and one I'd like them to fix pronto.

BTW, my net exported is not 125kWh but 66 from grid in Oct/Nov and 59 to grid in Sept/Oct...thus a net 7 from grid.

In the proceedings that defined how the successor tariff was to be implemented, the CPUC basically gave the power companies a year after NEM-ST started to get their billing correct. The minimum bill in particular is completely re-evaluated at the annual true-up, so there is already a correction mechanism built in. NBC methodology is still formally under review.

It is possible you are misunderstanding the calculations, and it is possible they are incorrect. I'm paying close attention to my NEM-ST bills and tracking what I think makes sense and what doesn't, but I already experienced bill restatements 4 months after the fact even under NEM 1.0, and wouldn't be surprised if something like that happens again.

$94 credit from a net 7 imported sounds like TOU is working out very well for you!

[oldguy]

Ok...back from many (many, many, but still not completely done) hours of kitchen cabinet refinishing. (Punchline to the question of how do you save $50k and keep a sledgehammer from attacking your kitchen?)

I think I have the answer. There's good news and bad news...but I think the good news beats out the bad news.

I believe SCE is calculating the bill correctly...or at least I now understand it fully. Through some CPUC googling I found this link:


http://docs.cpuc.ca.gov/PublishedDoc.../158181678.pdf


I need to dredge up a pre-solar bill...but based on a bill sample I found on the web (and looks familiar from memory) the DWR was/is a "delivery charge".

Find footnote 24 in the link above and they talk about "non-generation" charges. Look at the referencing text. Sadly, I think the bill is correct and while DWR is removed the other NBCs won't get yanked out.

So that explains my "exact change" discrepancy of not having the DWR as part of the 'bal of minimum charge'. Note that your NEM 2.0 bill will be the sum of the following (and assuming you are carrying a positive credit...or a negative "energy charge"):

# of days x $0.329 + the DWR charge -- the "franchise fees"...to the penny.

The good news, as it were, is that the (other NBCs)/DWR ratio is 2.6 : 1...on my last bill (with 387 kWh drawn from SCE) $2.12 (DWR) and $5.54 (all the other NBCs).

In a nutshell, the NBCs (less DWR) are part of minimum balance calculation...which is very good.

As to $94 credit with almost a net zero kWh...yes, it is a thing of beauty!

Thanks all...

[oldguy]

What happened to my reply? I typed it in and then saw an "unapproved".

[sensij]

What happened to my reply? I typed it in and then saw an "unapproved".

When you include links, it gets routed to moderation for approval (as a spam prevention measure).

[oldguy]

Ok...didn't know that. Hopefully info is saved?

btw, I'm using MS Edge. Haven't had much issues in past with it but do seem to have now. What is preferred browser these days?

[Mike90250]

Ok...didn't know that. Hopefully info is saved?

btw, I'm using MS Edge. Haven't had much issues in past with it but do seem to have now. What is preferred browser these days?

I use Firefox for a browser (win8.1) and notepad for text agglomeration.

[oldguy]

Mike90250...thanks...will update Firefox and use that. No idea what agglomeration means!

Back to beating my dead horse (SCE billing)...can anyone confirm that those DWR bonds will be paid off by 2022? I was able to find links that suggested that they were 20 year bonds issued in 2002. Gosh, I remember those days...how screwy was that? Even screwier now I think I'm seeing snippets in the news that sometimes SCE has to pay other utilities (and in other states) to take our excess generated energy!

[DrChaos]

Did you try clicking on the file? I uploaded the pdf to solarpaneltalk's server, so it ought to point back to them, but will download a pdf however your browser handles that (it works correctly when i click on it). Here is a dropbox link, if that helps:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/1cljnr72es...20135.pdf?dl=0

I understand where you are coming from, everything I read and understood suggested an implementation like what you've written here would be correct. I've only shifted my stance since I've gotten my bill and worked through the numbers first hand.

Further supporting the implementation I've described in this thread, is no evidence that SDG&E is looking at the net of each 15 min period individually. For example, over the billing period that I've shared here, I can download the 15 min data from their site and re-create the 359 kWh net for the month, as well as the net totals for each time period. If I drill into the 15 min data though, I see the following:

Peak: -93 net kWh, 72 kWh imported and 165 kWh exported
Off-peak: 124 net kWh, 219 kWh import and 95 kWh exported
Super off peak: 328 kWh, all imported.

There is *nothing* in the bill that suggests NBC's are being applied to the 15 min export numbers, only the monthly net, as described above.

My hypothesis is that SDG&E would obviously prefer to charge NBC's on as small a time period as they can (as 72+219+328 is bigger than 124+328) and they may be legally allowed to do so but the billing software is complex and might not at present be able to do that. I.e. all residential rate designs all can be computed on monthly totals in total kWh in each TOU period, but now a NBC would require looking at all 15 min periods in a month. Now, clearly there is some ability to look at those intervals because larger customers can be billed on maximum kW in any interval (cost for maximum short term current related to distribution loads) and not just sum of kWh.

The phrasing is somewhat ambiguous: "Nonbypassable charges will be calculated by multiplying the rate for each charge by the kWhs consumed in each metered interval net of exports over the course of each monthly billing period."

Is a 'metered interval' a TOU period or 15 mins? The linguistic question is 'net of exports'; does it attach to "metered interval" or "over the course of each monthly billing period? Both are very reasonable interpretations. We'd have to go back to CPUC legal decisions.

The shorter the period the more money SDG&E gets so they'd prefer that no doubt. They might compute it all on the annual true-up bill and put the remainder then.

[sensij]

The phrasing is somewhat ambiguous: "Nonbypassable charges will be calculated by multiplying the rate for each charge by the kWhs consumed in each metered interval net of exports over the course of each monthly billing period."

Is a 'metered interval' a TOU period or 15 mins? The linguistic question is 'net of exports'; does it attach to "metered interval" or "over the course of each monthly billing period? Both are very reasonable interpretations. We'd have to go back to CPUC legal decisions.

This is still under review at the CPUC. Although some of the gory details of NEM-ST were supposed to be cleaned up by Resolution E-4792 (see pages 16-22), the power companies submitted an application for rehearing to protest (on legal grounds) that the resolution was still not clear enough, which was approved at the end of May.

Here is a recent filing that includes some idea of the timeline involved to straighten this out:

http://docs.cpuc.ca.gov/PublishedDocs/Efile/G000/M198/K355/198355007.PDF

I've subscribed to proceeding A1607015 to stay on top of developments (in the public record), but it looks like a mess to me.

[oldguy]

Can someone put down in really simple terms why it would matter if the POCO dices up the data in (net) hourly increments or nets out the monthly channel 1 data? I'm not getting this at all. It seems that if I'm pulling from the grid it's going to be in non-production hours. What am I missing? So no one thinks I'm a total dope I'm on year 4 of middle school math teaching (including algebra that is taught at the HS level) after a 30+ year career with Hughes/Boeing. It's it a nickel or dime thing or some serious numbers? The bulk of my NBCs are coming during my Super Off-Peak time when I'm running pool pump/washer-dryer/dishwasher/etc.

Anyone know when those DWR bonds expire? When they do then (assuming no change in billing...ha ha) my min bill should be like NEM1.