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Is LG front-contact cell technology and susceptible to cracking and corrosion ?

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  • Is LG front-contact cell technology and susceptible to cracking and corrosion ?

    I'm shopping for a rooftop PV system and sent my best quote (an LG panel system with SE inverter) to a Sunpower rep who is in the running and the response I received was:

    LGs Neon R, 12 Wire Inter-cell Connection sounds way better than their
    previous versions. 12 must be better than 3, right? No. Any technology on top
    of a chip will corrode and degrade at a faster rate. This is the key reason for
    the 700+ patents Sunpower owns. Please note: Engineers & techs will understand this, so
    please share this with those with the knowledge base to understand.

    LG used the 12 wire Inter-cell Connection to increase their modules wattage.
    This isnt better for the homeowner as it pertains to quality and reliability.
    Dont be deceived, this is front-contact cell technology and susceptible to cracking and
    corrosion just like all the other conventional / commodity modules.

    BS sales talk or is there some truth to this ?
    Last edited by JRqwertyui; 06-14-2017, 12:25 PM.

  • #2
    BS.
    8.6 kWp roof (SE 7600 and 28 panels)

    Comment


    • #3
      It's B.S. in any meaningful sense. Sunpower's good stuff and I own a S.P. system, but their stuff is no more fit for purpose than other quality stuff, maybe less so because it's so damn overpriced.

      Please note, I'm a retired engineer, and former Sunpower stock owner. Their stock appreciation paid for my array about 10 times over. IMO, the stock appreciation was and is only matched by the advertising hype and B.S. One reason I bought the stock was my undying faith in people's ability to be B.S.'d and saw S.P. as being superior among solar vendors in that respect.

      I also think I know something about solar energy and PV technology, so please share that with your peddler.

      And BTW, sharing one vendor's information with another is not a good way to garner respect from a vendor. Also, a sure fire way to never get a price more than $0.010/Watt less from the vendor who sees a competitor's quote.

      Take what you want of the above. Scrap the rest.

      Comment


      • #4
        Not only is it BS, but it is mixed up BS. The LG NeON R line is a "30 multi-ribbon busbar technology hidden at the rear of the module".. so there aren't any connections made on top of the chip. The NeON 2 product line with "cello" is the 12 wire multi-ribbon busbar that the rep appears to be citing. I don't think you'll find any NeON 2 owners around here who have been disappointed in their system performance, at least through the first year or so they have been available.
        CS6P-260P/SE3000 - http://tiny.cc/ed5ozx

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        • #5
          At this point in my purchase cycle, I'm looking for the best price for what I consider a quality system from a handful of installers I've done due diligence on... if someone has a better method to lower, what I consider a high margin product (even given the labor, cost of equipment, and overhead)... Apparently there is lots of flexibility in price for the systems I'm considering... ~$28K for a 9450KW system is not something easily budgeted for... and I refuse to lease, PPA or loan). You could say, well that's the going price in your area of the country, but I've seen vendors negotiate downward...
          Last edited by JRqwertyui; 06-14-2017, 02:19 PM.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by JRqwertyui View Post
            At this point in my purchase cycle, I'm looking for the best price for what I consider a quality system from a handful of installers I've done due diligence on... if someone has a better method to lower, what I consider a high margin product (even given the labor, cost of equipment, and overhead)... Apparently there is a lots of flexibility in price for the systems I'm considering... ~$28K for a 9450KW system is not something easily budgeted for...
            As for price, don't know where you are, but that's about the going rate around here +/- some before tax credit. I'd only suggest not confusing most cost effective with least expensive per Watt initial price. Most folks almost invariably go with low initial buck, vendor and installation quality/integrity be damned. Everything is negotiable. Just don't corner or hammer vendors so hard they get a reason (in their own mind anyway) to skimp on quality in ways you'll never have a clue about until performance or reliability issues surface.

            If you're looking for most long term bang for the buck and cost effectiveness is important to you, do what you want, but know that PV is usually and most often pretty far down the list of cost effective measures to take to lower an electric bill, most to least cost effective, vs. most other ways to lower an electric bill. It's also usually one of the most expensive in terms of absolute $$ spent. That's why the smart money does PV after other use reducing measures (if at all) after as much use reduction and conservation are done as allowed by lifestyle and choice.

            Take what you want of the above. Scrap the rest.

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            • #7
              J.P.M. smart advice, well said... northern CA btw...
              I've (deep breath), reinsulated R!19 attic and walls, heating appliances now gas, led lights everywhere, pg&e TOU plan not tiered. new high efficiency HVAC systems, whole house fan for evenings, ceiling fan rooms, new windows everywhere, new refrigerator... wow, that's a lot... oh, and lowered temp on water heater. Having said all that, can't control +95 degree temps in summer
              Last edited by JRqwertyui; 06-14-2017, 02:49 PM.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by JRqwertyui View Post
                J.P.M. smart advice, well said... northern CA btw...
                I've (deep breath), reinsulated R!19 attic and walls, heating appliances now gas, led lights everywhere, pg&e TOU plan not tiered. new high efficiency HVAC systems, whole house fan for evenings, ceiling fan rooms, new windows everywhere, new refrigerator... wow, that's a lot... oh, and lowered temp on water heater. Having said all that, can't control +95 degree temps in summer
                Thank you for the info. Looks like you did it in the better order. FWIW, those measures probably lowered you annual use ~ 1/4 to 1/3 or so unless the lowered bills removed part of the incentive to conserve.

                Good luck.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Regarding negotiation, you do have to be prepared to negotiate (heavily!), not by sharing quotes among competitors, but by understanding what you're buying (properly sized, efficiently designed), getting a good selection of data points on what people near you are paying for solar, and most importantly trying to estimate your installer's actual cost (what could you buy the equipment for yourself, what are his labor costs, other indirect, etc.). You'll need to leave him a little meat on the bone, but a typical solar proposal contains $3k-$5k of just plain "extra" profit on top of the "normal" profit the company would need to make the job worthwhile. You could almost consider it a tax on the un-solar-educated, who either accept the quotes they get, or else feel good after asking an installer to beat a competitor by a few cents.

                  I went with the best installer in my area, perfect 5-star reviews across every review site you can think of. They're well known for high quality and great support (and it was a fantastic experience, I highly recommend them!), but even their own website says something to the effect of "we're not likely to be the cheapest quote you receive". I've helped a lot of neighbors plan for solar systems, and when they get multiple proposals, this company has been without fail the most expensive every time. That said, I negotiated them way down, and got the exact same system as one of my neighbors who used the same installer, but paid 18% (almost $9,000!) less per watt. The salesman I was working with knew that I knew about solar, and that I was price sensitive. We went back and forth on the design (I had already done quite a bit of the design, just needed them to review/refine it) and when he finally wrote a proposal the initial offer was just shy of 10% less than what my neighbor had paid.

                  He didn't know that I knew what the neighbor paid, he was just quoting me lower than a "normal" customer because he knew I knew better. I'm sure he hoped that a ~10% reduction would be enough to convince me I was getting a great deal. I'm sure I took him by surprise when I wrote him back and told him that after all the time we'd put into the design, such a high offer was insulting. I shared with him a rough estimation I'd done of what the material costs for the system should be, plus some swag for other costs, and told him that I would have expected him to quote me a number in the $2.xx to $2.yy range (a spread of 12-15 cents). He ended up coming back and offering me $0.03 less than the $2.yy value, a reduction of ~$0.20 from his initial offer, and a total of ~$0.43 less than I knew my neighbor had paid. Later during the permitting and engineering reviews there were two small changes made to the design, and since I knew that both changes would save him a little in both material costs and labor, I asked him for a small credit for each. When it was all said and done, after accounting for those two credits, my installed $/W price had gone down another $0.05/W from what we'd initially agreed on.

                  Don't get me wrong, he certainly didn't lose money on my job. There was enough meat left on the bone for it to be worth his trouble to take the job at all, but whatever profit he ended up making, it would have been an extra $8,500+ if I had just showed him my neighbors quote or a competitor's quote and asked him to beat it. I guess the moral of the story is that most solar proposals I've seen from my friends and neighbors are roughly 15-20% higher than they need to be for the installer to earn a "fair" profit. Your job as a consumer should be to become educated and then claw back as much of that as possible to keep it in your own wallet. The hard part is convincing the installer that you deserve the money more than he does

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                  • #10
                    Approx estimation (quick google searches on random sites, close to real retail prices):
                    30 LG NeON 2 315 = $9,000
                    30 SE Pnxx opts = $2,070
                    SE7600A-US = 1,526
                    Racking, cables, permits, misc = $5,000 (guesstimate)

                    = 17,596

                    I'm missing, labor, workman's comp (insurance), etc... + these are retail $$

                    Out of the bid for $28K for 9450KW, Unclear how much of the $+10.4K difference is eaten by those other expenses to make me feel good about his quote.
                    Last edited by JRqwertyui; 06-14-2017, 07:24 PM.

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                    • #11
                      I'd put variable costs (including labor) in at about $2.0 / W, maybe a bit more for the higher end panels you like. Add overhead, customer acquisition costs, service / warranty support, etc on top of that. I don't think you'll find many installers willing to drop as low as $2.75 / W or so for a conventional installation, especially in CA where electric rates are higher. Systems can cost more here and still hit acceptable ROI numbers for many who are considering it. Magius did well, but in a region with lower electric costs, PV can't cost what it does here and be as attractive. Why would an installer take your job at 2.xx when they can sell a 3.xx system just as easily?

                      I generally prefer not to be the customer paying the *least*... it is too easy to end up getting treated that way, even from an otherwise respectable contractor.
                      CS6P-260P/SE3000 - http://tiny.cc/ed5ozx

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        What i'm gathering is that, given my area and vendors not willing to go below $2.75 /W and still wanting them to start/complete my job, I should be satisfied with $2.96 /W for LG 315W panels... For myself, that upfront cost equals a mid-sized automobile on my roof, disregarding the 6ish year ROI and tax incentive (received next year). The vendor who offered has high rating on solarreviews..
                        Last edited by JRqwertyui; 06-14-2017, 07:48 PM.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by sensij View Post
                          Not only is it BS, but it is mixed up BS. The LG NeON R line is a "30 multi-ribbon busbar technology hidden at the rear of the module".. so there aren't any connections made on top of the chip. The NeON 2 product line with "cello" is the 12 wire multi-ribbon busbar that the rep appears to be citing. I don't think you'll find any NeON 2 owners around here who have been disappointed in their system performance, at least through the first year or so they have been available.
                          An interesting exercise in logic. There may not be any connections on top of the chip, but there have to be connections TO the top surface of the chip, as that is how they work.
                          Perhaps there is a pattern of fine deposited traces going from the front to isolated islands on the back surface where the interchip connection can terminate?
                          SunnyBoy 3000 US, 18 BP Solar 175B panels.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Just a few general comments. The LG Neon R's look really nice. I'm not sure when they will actually be available for purchase (and delivery) in the US. Currently I'm not able to find any US pricing just yet.

                            While I have seen some data suggesting that the 12-wire Cello panels (aka Neon2) might be subject to more micro fractures and bus bar degradation than some others (might be biased Panasonic information). BUT, like the Panasonics (and SunPower) the new Neon R's have a 25yr manufacturer's warranty so hopefully you'd be covered either way (in addition to their degradation warranty -- 87% I believe at year 25 for Neon R, vs ~90% for Panasonic, and I forget what SP is -- perhaps 85%?).

                            The new Neon R's are brand new -- new silicon, new busbars, etc. so no one really knows how reliable they will be. But obviously LG is a quality brand. From what I've read it sounds like they're going to be quite a bit more expensive than Neon R, but that remains to be seen.

                            When I pulled the trigger on my Panasonic panels, the Neon R's weren't released yet. If they had been, this may have swayed by decision. SP is great, but obviously way too expensive. Also keep in mind the Neon R's are "sightly bigger" than regular 60-cell panels. Supposedly LG is standardizing on this new 60-cell size going forward.

                            Since you live in CA (I assume California and not Canada) if its hot where you live, you might take a good look at the thermal coefficient of each. Panasonic has the least % reduction per degree C, Neon R is a close second (much better than Neon 2). SP is also very good, close to Panasonic I believe).

                            If it were me, I'd probably upsize your inverter. While I know panels rarely output their nameplate ratings, inverters (especially SE) are so inexpensive, there no reason to risk clipping (IMHO). My 11.4kW is only ~$1800-$1900. Be sure you're getting P370 or P400 optimizers.

                            To SP's credit, their copper busbars and individual cell integrity and durability are top notch -- but likely not worth the added cost. You also have to deal with their odd physical shape which may be a pro or minus depending on your roof shape.

                            If you have the roof space, you might get a comparison quote for a lower efficiency panel such as QCell or CanadianSolar. Obviously the panels are quite a bit less expensive, but you'll need more of them, so the added BOS costs might make the total price a wash.

                            You said you have a non-tiered TOU. What's your cost per watt? (generation and delivery) from your POCO? Might storage be beneficial? Perhaps not, I've not seen any system in the US yet where the added cost of storage was cost effective. Unlike in EU and AUS where there's no net-metering and very aggressive, tiered, TOU's.

                            Best,
                            Jonathan

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                            • #15
                              So is inetdog and JSchnee21 stating that there might be some validity to that vendors claim ?
                              The quote for Canadian Solar which required 35 panels for same KW compared to the 30 LG 315N1C-G4. The LG vendor matched the Canadian solar vendor's price. I can't locate anyone in my area that installs Q-Cells (I used solarreview and google). I know there must be a vendor because they just outfitted the parking lots of the Bay Area Transit system (BART) with Q-Cells.
                              I misspoke before, the ETOU plan I'm on has two tiers in both summer and in winter (I call the E1 rate "tiered", you use up your allocation on tier 1, then 2, then 3 is the highest usage cost.). The ETOU-B Plan's higher rate kicks in @4PM-9PM. When I get PV installed, I'll switch to the other ETOU plan that goes between the hours of 3pm-8pm.
                              I've never been able (haven't spent time needed) to decode their rate schedule PDF, to the layman it looks really complicated, with options and bundling, (I think they make it that way so that the average persons gives up...). If someone would explain it, that would be awesome (google PGE ETOU-B plan PDF).
                              Last edited by JRqwertyui; 06-15-2017, 05:08 AM.

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