4.6KW system in San Diego - got the quotes now have to pull the trigger

[djrobsd]

Let me start out by saying.. It feels like there are more solar options out there then there are cars, or any other consumer product I've seen! It blows me away.. Phew.

So, we have this nasty little problem, in the form of a $200/mo electric bill (average) with a peak at $350 in Dec/Jan when it dips down into the low 40s at night in San Diego and the Christmas lights can be seen from the planes landing at Lindbergh. Darn that hot tub anyway! It was only $60/month when we moved in and didn't have a hot tub... Oops. We did get insulation and all of our lights are LED, a pretty energy efficient home, but the hot tub really did steal the show.

I have 7 quotes from lead gen company, and 1 from one of the top rated Sunpower dealers locally on Yelp. I'm getting one more from the Costco/Sunrun collaboration tomorrow just for good measure.

Sunpower is the highest, no surprise there, we're at 3.72/DC Watt, aka $17,487 before incentives for 14 of their X-21-335 panels with built in microinverters. The quality of their product, and the warranty to back it up really impress me. And even though there are some doubts, they are backed by an oil company...

On the lead gen side, it's all over the map, but I've got prices such as $13,888 (3.10/Watt) for 14 LG Panels (320) (4.48kw total) with Enphase micro-inverters.
I've got a quote for $13,335 for 16 Canadian Solar CS6K-280 watt panels, 16 SE Microinverters, and SolarEdge 5000 optimizer (4.48kw total) (2.98/Watt)
And lastly... Hanwha Q-Cells 300 Q-Peak_G4.1 x 15 and 1 Solar Edge SE3800A optimizer for $13,995 (4.5kw total) ($3.11/watt)

Clearly the Sunpower is way over the price of the other 3 quotes I have. It does come with $600 worth of Hawaiian Air miles which does reduce the price per watt to $3.60 since we are already planning a trip to Hawaii. But that's still a hefty premium to pay. On the other hand, their financing rates seem to be better then everyone elses, which also brings the monthly cost a bit closer since we're planning on doing a 20 year finance and then making extra payments when we get tax returns, bonuses, etc. The 25 year warranty, and them servicing everything in house is also attractive. I'm not sure if this is true or not but the sales guy told me that a lot of other companies will outsource the warranty part and it could take months for your broken equipment to get replaced?

So, a bit of decision to make, I'm sure we'll be happy no matter what we choose, but it seems like the companies with the cheaper prices have higher interest rate loans making them the same price as the Sunpower (or else they just didn't show all my options on the quote). Maybe I need to get a couple more sunpower-specific quotes to see if I can get the sunpower cost down.

[J.P.M.]

Do what you want, but if you want to lower your electric bill to the most cost effective level, in the most cost effective way, do not commit to anything solar before you learn a lot more about how to meet your goal (a lower electric bill) using the most effective methods. You will learn that doing the cheapest stuff first is usually a better way to go. Any resulting solar after conservation measures will be smaller and thus less expensive. Solar PV is about the most expensive way to lower an electric bill. Follow the money.

If you are convinced that throwing solar at a high electric bill is what you want, forget about come-ons, travel points, gift cards and the rest of that crap. You're trying to save money, not take a trip. And, forget Sunpower. Good quality, but way overpriced for what you get. Find a reputable local, electrical contractor who has been around since before the solar craze and has a fair chance of being around after things calm down. Get reputable equipment and keep in mind that paying more than ~ $3.25 or so per nameplate Watt is leaving $$ on the table.

But, before any of that, do two things. Read "Solar Power Your Home for Dummies", either downloaded for free of the net or ~ $25 for a newer, updated version in bookstores or Amazon. Then, AFTER reading the book, run something called PVWatts. It's a solar modeling program on the net. Read the help/info screens a couple of times, make some runs and estimate a system size using your new found knowledge. Estimate a size and then multiply that size by $3.00/Watt. Call vendors and tell them the size and price you want. Negotiate. Iterate. Everything is negotiable.

[solar pete]

Hi djrobsd and welcome to Solar Panel; Talk. You might want to check out the companies you are getting quotes from on www.solarreviews.com and you could try a few more quotes through www.solar-estimate.org

My rules of thumb, panels are panels dont get to hung up on it, I like Canadian Solar, I prefer a string inverter over micro inverters unless you have a strange shaped roof or shade, but if you have shade best off not putting panels there. Keep reading and you should end up with a good result, cheers.

[organic farmer]

Let me start out by saying.. It feels like there are more solar options out there then there are cars, or any other consumer product I've seen! It blows me away.. Phew.

Good point.

Here in my town there are four homes using solar power.

1- an expensive net-metering system
2- a 1980s solar and wind hybrid 12vdc off-grid system
3- a 2000s solar and wind hybrid 24vdc off-grid system
4- a 2015 solar 48vdc off-grid system.

[maximizese]

Let me start out by saying.. It feels like there are more solar options out there then there are cars, or any other consumer product I've seen! It blows me away.. Phew.

So, we have this nasty little problem, in the form of a $200/mo electric bill (average) with a peak at $350 in Dec/Jan when it dips down into the low 40s at night in San Diego and the Christmas lights can be seen from the planes landing at Lindbergh. Darn that hot tub anyway! It was only $60/month when we moved in and didn't have a hot tub... Oops. We did get insulation and all of our lights are LED, a pretty energy efficient home, but the hot tub really did steal the show.

As JPM suggested, a quick read of "Solar Power Your Home for Dummies" will give you a good understand of how to make your home and living energy efficient. You can thumb through it in about an hour and jot down a few notes. My take away is that solar has been around for decades, but the price has dropped dramatically and the efficiency gets incrementally better each year. You can design your landscape and hardscape to increase solar gain during the fall/winter and minimize the effect during the summer with window treatments and shades. Before committing to solar, I would do an audit of your current electricity and likely demand in the next 5 years. I lived like an energy miser for years, using about 12kWh/day. Now that I want to live more comfortable, have an EV that gets driven 100 miles a day, and have 300 bottles of wine to care for, my energy demand nearly triple what it use to be. However, 70% of that demand is used between 10pm-8am, so I take advantage of my utility's TOU rates. As you stated, the hot tub seems to be culprit. Do you use it that much or is it possible to run it on less electricity when you're not using it? Do you have a cover?

On the lead gen side, it's all over the map, but I've got prices such as $13,888 (3.10/Watt) for 14 LG Panels (320) (4.48kw total) with Enphase micro-inverters.
I've got a quote for $13,335 for 16 Canadian Solar CS6K-280 watt panels, 16 SE Microinverters, and SolarEdge 5000 optimizer (4.48kw total) (2.98/Watt)
And lastly... Hanwha Q-Cells 300 Q-Peak_G4.1 x 15 and 1 Solar Edge SE3800A optimizer for $13,995 (4.5kw total) ($3.11/watt)

I'm not sure that last bid has a properly sized inverter. I would think a SolarEdge SE5000 would be better suited for a 4.5kW system, but I'm no expert. I recently signed a contract with a solar company that has stellar reviews of both Yelp! and Solarreview.com. Here is my system that should be up in a few weeks:

4.8kW system
16 Hanwha Q-Cells 300 Q-Peak G4.1
16 SolarEdge P300 Optimizers
1 SolarEdge SE5000A-US
IronRidge XR-10 Rails
IronRidge Flashfoot2 Mounts
IronRdige Titan CL-50-DB Grounding

$15,500 ($3.23/watt) but

Also included a new 14-50r and service line for the EV, a promise to not exceed $1,200 for removal and reinstallation of the array system if/when I need to re-roof, and a promise to not sub-contract (something they don't do as business, but I wanted it in writing). Those negotiations were my own doing, as I like assurances.

Since my ranch-style house faces 20 degrees north, the rear of the house has a wonderful 200 S-SW exposure with limited shading. I had them design the panels to mount landscape instead of portrait to get the array as high up on the roof as possible since I do have a little shading from trees during the winter months. The rails will run 3 feet below the ridge per fire setback rules, and will run latitudinally across the roof, sandwiching the few roof vents, attic fan, and furnace chimney. It won't be the prettiest thing, but it's invisible to the front of the house and it's probably the most efficient layout.

[djrobsd]

As JPM suggested, a quick read of "Solar Power Your Home for Dummies" will give you a good understand of how to make your home and living energy efficient. You can thumb through it in about an hour and jot down a few notes. My take away is that solar has been around for decades, but the price has dropped dramatically and the efficiency gets incrementally better each year. You can design your landscape and hardscape to increase solar gain during the fall/winter and minimize the effect during the summer with window treatments and shades. Before committing to solar, I would do an audit of your current electricity and likely demand in the next 5 years. I lived like an energy miser for years, using about 12kWh/day. Now that I want to live more comfortable, have an EV that gets driven 100 miles a day, and have 300 bottles of wine to care for, my energy demand nearly triple what it use to be. However, 70% of that demand is used between 10pm-8am, so I take advantage of my utility's TOU rates. As you stated, the hot tub seems to be culprit. Do you use it that much or is it possible to run it on less electricity when you're not using it? Do you have a cover?





I'm not sure that last bid has a properly sized inverter. I would think a SolarEdge SE5000 would be better suited for a 4.5kW system, but I'm no expert. I recently signed a contract with a solar company that has stellar reviews of both Yelp! and Solarreview.com. Here is my system that should be up in a few weeks:

Good point on the inverter, that's why it's best to double and triple check all these quotes to find holes in them. Good point on future usage, I'm sure we will eventually need a fridge to care for our collection as well, right now we've got about 75-80 bottles and we're just "taking our chances" that our 75 degree house keeps them pretty good. We have been working diligently to do other things prior to getting solar. We just had cellulose insulation blown into all the exterior walls and attic. Our house now stays 72-75 degrees consistently 24/7, even when it's 88 outside, it's still 75 in here, when it's 50 outside, we're sitting at 75, so I'd say the $3k on insulation was an awesome investment.

The hot tub is brand new from Costco, and came with a cover that we keep on it. We originally had a set temp of 102 - 24/7, but decided to drop it to 95 and just set it at 102 about 45 minutes before we get in. It seems to be fairly efficient, but maybe I can experiment a bit more with what the "sweet spot" is. If we used it every day I'm sure our current setting would be good, but we use about 3-4x per week.

We may eventually get an electric car but that's another 2 years down the road when current leases expire. We've definitely got plenty of room on our flat roof for future expansion. I want to make sure if we do get a system that it is expandable, and not some nightmare that I've heard from some people on solar reviews where the company told them they had to buy an entire new system and get it permitted again.

Aside from that, our needs really are seasonal, we run holiday decorations from late Nov-Mid Jan, and those definitely eat up a chunk of KWH. On the other hand we have switched many of them to LED over the years so that has helped, still have a bit more changing out to do.

[sensij]

The 3.8kW inverter is the right one for your system. You could consider asking for the 3800h instead of the 3800A

[igerstein]

Are the other panels you have quotes for black on black, like the sunpower 335s are? Something to consider.

[djrobsd]

Are the other panels you have quotes for black on black, like the sunpower 335s are? Something to consider.

I'm not sure. I'm pretty sure they are not. You won't be able to see the panels on my house after they are installed, so aesthetics are not a concern. Why else would the black on black be important and merit 4k more for the system then the LG or Hanwha ones?

[J.P.M.]

I'm not sure. I'm pretty sure they are not. You won't be able to see the panels on my house after they are installed, so aesthetics are not a concern. Why else would the black on black be important and merit 4k more for the system then the LG or Hanwha ones?

If it's Sunpower, there's not too much in annual performance enhancement that would justify much of any added cost.

[djrobsd]

If it's Sunpower, there's not too much in annual performance enhancement that would justify much of any added cost.

What other panels are on par? Are the LG and Hanhwah close?

[J.P.M.]

What other panels are on par? Are the LG and Hanhwah close?

Just about any known quality panel from reputable manufacturers, Sunpower and most everyone else's will be as fit for purpose as any other. You will pay up to and probably ~ 20 + % or more extra for a Sunpower paneled array. You will not get quality that's worth 20+ % more. You will not get 20+ % more annual output. Know this: Equal sized arrays using different panels, again, of recognized quality, in the same location, orientation and duty will produce approx. equal output on an annual basis for as long as you are likely to own that array. Panels are pretty much a commodity at this time. Beyond some basic level of quality, there's not a whole lot of difference one to another. Most of the hype, particularly from S.P. is no more than marketing B.S.

S.P. is good stuff. So is a Mercedes. Both a Ford and a Mercedes are well suited as grocery haulers. Solar PV is an appliance, not a lifestyle. S.P. comes with bragging rights. Bragging rights are not cost effective nor do they make an array more fit for purpose.

Drink the Sunpower Kool-Aid an your own risk.

[djrobsd]

Just about any known quality panel from reputable manufacturers, Sunpower and most everyone else's will be as fit for purpose as any other. You will pay up to and probably ~ 20 + % or more extra for a Sunpower paneled array. You will not get quality that's worth 20+ % more. You will not get 20+ % more annual output. Know this: Equal sized arrays using different panels, again, of recognized quality, in the same location, orientation and duty will produce approx. equal output on an annual basis for as long as you are likely to own that array. Panels are pretty much a commodity at this time. Beyond some basic level of quality, there's not a whole lot of difference one to another. Most of the hype, particularly from S.P. is no more than marketing B.S.

S.P. is good stuff. So is a Mercedes. Both a Ford and a Mercedes are well suited as grocery haulers. Solar PV is an appliance, not a lifestyle. S.P. comes with bragging rights. Bragging rights are not cost effective nor do they make an array more fit for purpose.

Drink the Sunpower Kool-Aid an your own risk.

Not going to drink the kool-aid at all for sure. I am finding it interesting through, I got the quote back from Sunrun, it is $400 HIGHER THEN SUNPOWER!! And they want to use REC290TP2 panels and a Solis 4000W inverter (model 747856) for the exact same size (4.64KW with Sunrun, 4.69 with Sunpower). So both companies are over-priced. Shocker! And Sunrun's warranty sucks, 10 years on workmanship, 10 years on inverter unless you buy extended, etc. Such a deal! Anyway, I'm continuing to shop around on some of the top-rated Yelp rated vendors now to see where they lie.

[J.P.M.]

Not going to drink the kool-aid at all for sure. I am finding it interesting through, I got the quote back from Sunrun, it is $400 HIGHER THEN SUNPOWER!! And they want to use REC290TP2 panels and a Solis 4000W inverter (model 747856) for the exact same size (4.64KW with Sunrun, 4.69 with Sunpower). So both companies are over-priced. Shocker! And Sunrun's warranty sucks, 10 years on workmanship, 10 years on inverter unless you buy extended, etc. Such a deal! Anyway, I'm continuing to shop around on some of the top-rated Yelp rated vendors now to see where they lie.

Many folks ( myself included) have had mostly good experiences with established local electrical contractors who have been in business long before solar and will probably be around long after solar tanks, or at least until the boom ends. Sunrun is, IMO only, after being the guy on my HOA board that reviews/recommends approvals to board for the last 9 yrs. and seeing work from most of the local outfits and the big nationals as well, one of the bottom feeders along with SolarCity an Vivant. Paying top $$ for Sunrun is like buying a Hugo at Lexus prices.
I'd stay local with vendors using known, established products. Negotiate tough but fair and stay involved after contract signing until you get PTO (permission to operate) and AHJ signoff.

Read the book.

[djrobsd]

Thanks for the posts everyone.. We got 7 bids on EnergySage, and also had about 5 other top rated "local" yelp contractors give us bids. In the end, we ended up pulling the trigger on the Sunpower Equinox system with 327 watt panels. We got them down to $3.30/watt so it just made sense from all angles, and their financing as the most competitive with the 2.99 rate and letting you pay the tax credit payment for 18 months same as cash... So all was a win-win. We did get some cheaper quotes, but we ended up going with Sunpower because their price wasn't too far off from the other companies, and since we financed our system, the "financed cost" with the Sunpower loan actually made the price pretty much the same as the cheaper companies whose lenders also had their own financing fees. Will keep everyone posted on how the install goes and how the new system performs.