A newbie's questions on a grid tied system

[godbucket]

I am new, both to this forum and to solar (and electricity in general). And I promise I have read through many, many posts for info before I created this, however I cannot find anything with my specific configuration, questions, and fears. So please, go easy on me, and thank you in advance for any assistance.

I live in Texas, and I want a grid-tied system to help with the electric bill during the hot months, all 12 of them.

I've already bought the parts. No charge controllers or batteries, just want panels and micro inverters, directly into a standard 120v exterior wall outlet. I want to do the exact same thing this guy has done: https://youtu.be/TiQELOEo45g

So I have my 2 panels:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B018BP22LA/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1

And my micro inverter:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00S0YXAOG/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I'm going to run the 2, 12 volt panels in series to get the voltage up to 24, then into the inverter, then AC power out, straight into an external wall outlet.

My question is this: is this really ok?!?! Is this all I need? I'm scared to death to plug it all in. I'm just looking for an expert to say "you're all clear kid", or "no, do this ___".

Any assistance is greatly greatly greatly appreciated. Thanks!

[inetdog]

I am new, both to this forum and to solar (and electricity in general). And I promise I have read through many, many posts for info before I created this, however I cannot find anything with my specific configuration, questions, and fears. So please, go easy on me, and thank you in advance for any assistance.

I live in Texas, and I want a grid-tied system to help with the electric bill during the hot months, all 12 of them.

I've already bought the parts. No charge controllers or batteries, just want panels and micro inverters, directly into a standard 120v exterior wall outlet. I want to do the exact same thing this guy has done: https://youtu.be/TiQELOEo45g

So I have my 2 panels:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

And my micro inverter:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I'm going to run the 2, 12 volt panels in series to get the voltage up to 24, then into the inverter, then AC power out, straight into an external wall outlet.

My question is this: is this really ok?!?! Is this all I need? I'm scared to death to plug it all in. I'm just looking for an expert to say "you're all clear kid", or "no, do this ___".

Any assistance is greatly greatly greatly appreciated. Thanks!

No way is that going to be safe or legal, even if it is a dedicated circuit, which it probably is not.

The inverter is not UL listed and is both unsafe and illegal for use in the US. (Which at last count still includes Texas.)

The panels are costing you $2 per watt, when less than $1 per watt is a reasonable price.

In short, you have made a big mistake buying what you did, and we cannot help you illegally and unsafely connect your system to your home.
Is it too late to return the merchandise?

[godbucket]

Hey, thanks for the quick reply! I haven't opened anything yet, so may be able to return, I will definitely check. What's so weird is there are literally thousands and thousands of people running setups similar or identical to these. I of course believe every single word you typed, and take it to heart, but its just strange that these configurations are so popular.

All that said, would you have any suggestions going-forward for what I want to do? Assuming I return/re-sell what I've bought, what would you purchase to achieve what I'm wanting? (also assuming I'd like to stay around the same price-point; $300-500 for a starter-type kit)

Thanks again!

[SunEagle]

Hey, thanks for the quick reply! I haven't opened anything yet, so may be able to return, I will definitely check. What's so weird is there are literally thousands and thousands of people running setups similar or identical to these. I of course believe every single word you typed, and take it to heart, but its just strange that these configurations are so popular.

All that said, would you have any suggestions going-forward for what I want to do? Assuming I return/re-sell what I've bought, what would you purchase to achieve what I'm wanting? (also assuming I'd like to stay around the same price-point; $300-500 for a starter-type kit)

Thanks again!

A lot of people cheat on the Fed income tax along with taking money under the table and not reporting that income. That doesn't make it legal but they still do it until they are caught.

Unfortunately using a non UL listed inverter (especially a cheap one) is not only illegal but can be dangerous due to the poor quality that is being sold to the unsuspecting customers.

[inetdog]

Hey, thanks for the quick reply! I haven't opened anything yet, so may be able to return, I will definitely check. What's so weird is there are literally thousands and thousands of people running setups similar or identical to these. I of course believe every single word you typed, and take it to heart, but its just strange that these configurations are so popular.

All that said, would you have any suggestions going-forward for what I want to do? Assuming I return/re-sell what I've bought, what would you purchase to achieve what I'm wanting? (also assuming I'd like to stay around the same price-point; $300-500 for a starter-type kit)

Thanks again!

Unfortunately there is nothing on the US market that would give you that price point which is also legal to install grid connected in the US.
A small grid tied system professionally installed is going to run between $3 and #4 per watt in most areas, and a minimum system at that price would be 3kW or more.
A DIY system (to the extent allowed locally) will be significantly cheaper, but again with a minimum practical size.
In most jurisdictions a permit, inspection and approval by your POwer COmpany (POCO) will be required.

[SunEagle]

Unfortunately there is nothing on the market that would give you that price point which is also legal.
A small grid tied system professionally installed is going to run between $3 and #4 per watt in most areas, and a minimum system at that price would be 3kW or more.
A DIY system (to the extent allowed locally) will be significantly cheaper, but again with a minimum practical size.
In most jurisdictions a permit, inspection and approval by your POwer COmpany (POCO) will be required.

Don't forget the issue of paying for the power you send to the Grid if you don't have an agreement with your POCO. The standard meters can't tell which way the power is going so they charge for it both ways. Only after the POCO has installed a Net meter will it subtract the power that you sell to the POCO.

Most people wanting to go the cheap and illegal way don't seem to understand that problem.

[peakbagger]

Many utilities have antifraud monitoring on their billing, they establish a long term usage range for the account. If the usage drops significantly, they may send a technician out to review the home. If they find a potentially illegal solar setup, they may remove the meter (which shuts off the power )and leave a note for the homeowner to give them a call if they want their power turned back on. Utility folks really don't like other generation sources hooked up to their grid, they tolerate legal grid tie setups but if it was their choice they wouldn't even allow them.

[J.P.M.]

Many utilities have antifraud monitoring on their billing, they establish a long term usage range for the account. If the usage drops significantly, they may send a technician out to review the home. If they find a potentially illegal solar setup, they may remove the meter (which shuts off the power )and leave a note for the homeowner to give them a call if they want their power turned back on. Utility folks really don't like other generation sources hooked up to their grid, they tolerate legal grid tie setups but if it was their choice they wouldn't even allow them.

I had that happen to me in 1980, but with nat. gas usage. Prior owners of my home had much higher use than I did, and after acquiring the property and moving in, I'd spent time/$$'s efforts on conservation. Seeing the somewhat abrupt ( ~ 4 months) decrease in usage, the POCO/gas co. came snooping around looking for tampering on my part. Finding none, they left, only to return on a semi regular basis. They eventually changed my gas meter. Usage continued to drop, although not at the same initial rate of decrease. They never shut me off ( that was illegal in NY state), but I'm not sure they ever quite believed I wasn't stealing product from them.

Point is, and somewhat confirming Peakbagger's antifraud monitoring comment, big brother is watching.

[godbucket]

Thanks again to those that responded for the info. I'm returning the parts I ordered (I had no idea they were illegal btw; its not like I was purposefully trying to commit a crime. I did say I'm new and know very little of this stuff), and purchasing a small 250 watt grid tied Aims setup (UL certified). Will have an electrician wire the 240v AC output to my breaker box. This is all pending the meter situation of course. Thanks again.

[SunEagle]

I had that happen to me in 1980, but with nat. gas usage. Prior owners of my home had much higher use than I did, and after acquiring the property and moving in, I'd spent time/$$'s efforts on conservation. Seeing the somewhat abrupt ( ~ 4 months) decrease in usage, the POCO/gas co. came snooping around looking for tampering on my part. Finding none, they left, only to return on a semi regular basis. They eventually changed my gas meter. Usage continued to drop, although not at the same initial rate of decrease. They never shut me off ( that was illegal in NY state), but I'm not sure they ever quite believed I wasn't stealing product from them.

Point is, and somewhat confirming Peakbagger's antifraud monitoring comment, big brother is watching.

And now that there are more "smart meters" it will be much easier for the POCO to spot a change in usage and send out the dogs to investigate.

[SunEagle]

Thanks again to those that responded for the info. I'm returning the parts I ordered (I had no idea they were illegal btw; its not like I was purposefully trying to commit a crime. I did say I'm new and know very little of this stuff), and purchasing a small 250 watt grid tied Aims setup (UL certified). Will have an electrician wire the 240v AC output to my breaker box. This is all pending the meter situation of course. Thanks again.

I don't believe we were trying to accuse you of doing something illegal. It is just that a lot of people come here thinking they can spend a little money and connect to the grid hoping to reduce their electric bill. We try to alert them to the issue not to trust the people that sell those inverters.

The problem is that to save on your bill with a solar pv system requires an investment much higher then most people can afford.

[peakbagger]

Its great that you are able to return stuff. It good you asked the question and hopefully got a bit educated. Don't get discouraged, keep asking questions.

[littleharbor]

One other negative point with those illegal plug in, non UL, grid tie inverters. If you have one hooked up and it causes a fire your, (or your landlord's) insurance company will most likely not cover the damage.

[godbucket]

One last question, and thanks again for everyone's help.

I've checked with my power company (Oncor), and they do allow for sell/feed back into the grid:

http://www.askoncor.com/EN/Pages/FAQs/DG-99.3.aspx

And my meter model specifically says it can handle bi-directional power for solar/wind applications:

http://www.landisgyr.com/webfoo/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/OV_ResidentialMetering1.pdf

My problem is this: I need a 240 volt line run from my breaker box, but every electrician I call in town throws up their hands and runs away when I mention that it will be used for solar. They say they're not "trained on solar", and claim something about "phasing issue" or "phase to phase", and say they can't do it, and that I'll need 'some kind of other parts' in my setup.

Can someone either confirm or deny their claims?
Is what I'm wanting to do really that dangerous?
(to recap: 2 x 12v 100 watt panels wired in series, 1 Aims 250 watt grid tie inverter, 240v output to breaker box)
Or is this an issue of local "good ol' boy" electricians who are just ignorant to solar and/or alternative energies?

Thanks again for everyone's help.

[SunEagle]

One last question, and thanks again for everyone's help.

I've checked with my power company (Oncor), and they do allow for sell/feed back into the grid:

http://www.askoncor.com/EN/Pages/FAQs/DG-99.3.aspx

And my meter model specifically says it can handle bi-directional power for solar/wind applications:

http://www.landisgyr.com/webfoo/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/OV_ResidentialMetering1.pdf

My problem is this: I need a 240 volt line run from my breaker box, but every electrician I call in town throws up their hands and runs away when I mention that it will be used for solar. They say they're not "trained on solar", and claim something about "phasing issue" or "phase to phase", and say they can't do it, and that I'll need 'some kind of other parts' in my setup.

Can someone either confirm or deny their claims?
Is what I'm wanting to do really that dangerous?
(to recap: 2 x 12v 100 watt panels wired in series, 1 Aims 250 watt grid tie inverter, 240v output to breaker box)
Or is this an issue of local "good ol' boy" electricians who are just ignorant to solar and/or alternative energies?

Thanks again for everyone's help.

I am not sure why an electrician would not want to perform that installation if they have the proper electrical training. Most legal grid tie inverter provide very clean instruction on how to wire it to the main house panel. Although in some states you need to have a solar certification to perform the work so that could be why they run away because they are not allowed to do the work.