New NEM 2.0+ Agreements

[Dave1478]

Hello All,

So I have noticed a lack of activity on the forums as well as price decreases on solar. I am assuming a lot of this is credited to the newer NEM agreements causing a lower ROI on going solar. Personally under the new local power companys NEM 2.0 agreement they have introduced a one time connection fee as well as a strict monthly credit at .07 cents per over production. The monthly true up with allowing no carry over of overproduction compared to Nem 1.0 to me would be a easy $400.00 a year or 16% increase in costs.

The next local utitity which is PGE requiring time of use only plans on NEM 2.0. They are still doing 12 true ups. edited, sorry.

With these new NEMS do you think solar will soon be a thing of the past or will legislation or lower prices for equipment/installation keep it going? As a business owner in the speciality construction field I see it as most companies will close due to low demand because it no longer being a good investment. Any other worse NEMs in your areas or is it still viable number wise?

Links

PGE- Nem 2.0 Still has true up, but says it surpluses are typically zeroed out. But below has the Net surplus compensation (NSC) which is the payout. Link:

http://www.pge.com/includes/docs/pdfs/mybusiness/services/nonpge/generateownpower/netenergymetering/standardnem/Form_79-1151A.pdf

MID- No carry over, no true up, monthly now with 2.0. Link : http://www.mid.org/tariffs/Rates/NET_METERING_2.pdf

I typed this out once and I have no idea where it went, hope this posts.

[J.P.M.]

Great question and probably one that will generate a lot of discussion - some of it thoughtful, some rancorous, a lot of it parochial, anecdotal and shortsighted. One answer might be: "It depends". Lots of talking points.

[reader2580]

Loss of net metering is a huge concern of mine. I understand why utilities don't like it, but many of them are also under pressure to shift to more renewable energy. I don't want to make money with solar, but I do want to at least pay my system off in 25 years with savings on my electric bill.

Electric cooperatives in the state of Minnesota are absolutely against net metering. They don't want to pay anything for energy produced that is in excess of what is used by the customer. They also want to limit the number of net metering customers. I think if state law allowed they would they would pay nothing for excess production when the sun is shining and charge full retail for power at night or when solar doesn't produce enough to meet customer needs. There is currently a bill in the Minnesota state legislature that would exempt cooperatives from any regulation by the state PUC.

I'm seriously considering if I just scrap my solar plans because of everything I am reading/hearing that would make it nearly impossible to pay off a system in 25 years.

[bcroe]

Electric cooperatives in the state of Minnesota are absolutely against net metering. They don't want to pay anything for energy produced that is in excess of what is used by the customer. They also want to limit the number of net metering customers. I think if state law allowed they would they would pay nothing for excess production when the sun is shining and charge full retail for power at night or when solar doesn't produce enough to meet customer needs. There is currently a bill in the Minnesota state legislature that would exempt cooperatives from any regulation by the state PUC.

I don't hear anything about the relative merits of DIFFERENT net metering plans. In my case the PoCo never
buys any power from me, they have received my leftovers as a gift, and I contribute most output to peak
leveling here. Maybe that is like the above proposal; full retail only and annual surplus gifted.

My goal is to save propane; my KWH use was already very small. Bruce Roe

[J.P.M.]

Loss of net metering is a huge concern of mine. I understand why utilities don't like it, but many of them are also under pressure to shift to more renewable energy. I don't want to make money with solar, but I do want to at least pay my system off in 25 years with savings on my electric bill.

Electric cooperatives in the state of Minnesota are absolutely against net metering. They don't want to pay anything for energy produced that is in excess of what is used by the customer. They also want to limit the number of net metering customers. I think if state law allowed they would they would pay nothing for excess production when the sun is shining and charge full retail for power at night or when solar doesn't produce enough to meet customer needs. There is currently a bill in the Minnesota state legislature that would exempt cooperatives from any regulation by the state PUC.

I'm seriously considering if I just scrap my solar plans because of everything I am reading/hearing that would make it nearly impossible to pay off a system in 25 years.

For those not already committed, it might be wise to wait a bit and see what develops over the next year or two. In the meantime, consider any additional conservation or use reduction as a more cost effective strategy that will not only give better ROI, but will also allow any eventual PV system smaller and thus less expensive.

[J.P.M.]

I don't hear anything about the relative merits of DIFFERENT net metering plans. In my case the PoCo never
buys any power from me, they have received my leftovers as a gift, and I contribute most output to peak
leveling here. Maybe that is like the above proposal; full retail only and annual surplus gifted.

My goal is to save propane; my KWH use was already very small. Bruce Roe

Sounds like the POCO would be crazy not to love you.

[reader2580]

In my case, I feel I've already reduced my electricity usage about much as possible without spending about $20,000 to gut the entire house and have all the walls insulated with spray foam. My attic already has a layer of spray foam in it. My HVAC was all replaced two years ago. Doors and windows are new. All lights are LED. I think I could save about 10% more by making some additional changes. I don't turn up my A/C as much as I should during the day in the summer because then it would struggle to reduce the temperature during warmest part of day just before I get home. My electricity use is under 5,000 KWh as it is.

I wonder if residential solar has peaked until we see much lower costs, viable storage options, or some great new technology?

I think the next big thing in electrical rates is going to be mandatory time of day metering. What most utilities define as the peak period also lines up quite nicely with the time of day most people are actually home and using the most power. The first part of the peak period is also the hottest time of day in the summer for most so the highest A/C use. The local cooperative has a time of day plan that charges 45 cents per KWh between 4 pm and 8 pm, but only discounts daytime electricity rates by 1 cent per KWh and overnight by 4 cents per KWh. (Normal rate is 12.8 cents per KWh.) My electric bill would go up by probably 250% with a plan like this as probably half my power usage is during peak time. Mandatory time of day metering is going to cause electric bills to skyrocket if it happens.

[J.P.M.]

In my case, I feel I've already reduced my electricity usage about much as possible without spending about $20,000 to gut the entire house and have all the walls insulated with spray foam. My attic already has a layer of spray foam in it. My HVAC was all replaced two years ago. Doors and windows are new. All lights are LED. I think I could save about 10% more by making some additional changes. I don't turn up my A/C as much as I should during the day in the summer because then it would struggle to reduce the temperature during warmest part of day just before I get home. My electricity use is under 5,000 KWh as it is.

I wonder if residential solar has peaked until we see much lower costs, viable storage options, or some great new technology?

I think the next big thing in electrical rates is going to be mandatory time of day metering. What most utilities define as the peak period also lines up quite nicely with the time of day most people are actually home and using the most power. The first part of the peak period is also the hottest time of day in the summer for most so the highest A/C use. The local cooperative has a time of day plan that charges 45 cents per KWh between 4 pm and 8 pm, but only discounts daytime electricity rates by 1 cent per KWh and overnight by 4 cents per KWh. (Normal rate is 12.8 cents per KWh.) My electric bill would go up by probably 250% with a plan like this as probably half my power usage is during peak time. Mandatory time of day metering is going to cause electric bills to skyrocket if it happens.

At 5,000 kWh/yr., you're probably an exception to U.S. usage that tests the rule of profligate energy use. You are to be commended.

If/when your POCO begins mandating T.O.U. tariffs, you'll indeed be better off, financially at least, avoiding usage at peak times, as will most folks.

Of course, that will tend to force rates to increase at other times for reasons that will be seen by users as simple greed on the part of POCOs, with the POCO justification as being one of "sending price signals" to the users to lower peak demands on the grid. Both reasons and others will probably be in play with hourly pricing tending toward regression to some mean, with everyone gaming the system as best as they can and as much as possible, the POCOs included.

[kmm]

Great question and probably one that will generate a lot of discussion - some of it thoughtful, some rancorous, a lot of it parochial, anecdotal and shortsighted. One answer might be: "It depends". Lots of talking points.

Yes, I have a "depends" case.

After being out out of the market for solar for 3 years, I am jumping back in.

In our case, the case for solar "depends" on if you think it will increase the value of your house.

The wife wholely believes so, and depends on that argument to encourage us to proceed getting a PV system.

(J.P.M.-I live in in your hood-might be sending a note, or two, your way).

[bcroe]

The local cooperative has a time of day plan that charges 45 cents per KWh between 4 pm and 8 pm, but only discounts daytime electricity rates by 1 cent per KWh and overnight by 4 cents per KWh. (Normal rate is 12.8 cents per KWh.) My electric bill would go up by probably 250% with a plan like this as probably half my power usage is during peak time. Mandatory time of day metering is going to cause electric bills to skyrocket if it happens.

That IS greed, just an example of proposing a RIDICULOUS rate, so that when the regulators attack it, it only
gets dropped to simply EXTREME OVERCHARGING. Guess you could turn off EVERYTHING for those hours;
shouldn't have to do such things.

Some time ago there was something like that here. The PoCo decided to just DOUBLE the KWH rate for the
air conditioning months. Not just for your INCREASE in usage, but for ALL of it. My usage was the lowest in
the summer, and I was not happy. Just the same I did manage to get the total bill under $20 many months.
Don't know if/when they dropped that rate; I don't buy KWH anymore. Bruce Roe

[solar pete]

If/when your POCO begins mandating T.O.U. tariffs, you'll indeed be better off, financially at least, avoiding usage at peak times, as will most folks.

And here in lies the problem......., Oh you can just shift your usage, say the POCO's, and we all know this is a lie. Dinner time is dinner time? When its hot in the afternoon it's time for the AC, when dinner is done time for homework/ some TV? Gotta wash some clothes etc , etc

People you need to fight TOU tooth and nail, it is simply a POCO con to make more money

End of rant

[cebury]

Hello All,


The next local utitity which is PGE is doing the same no carry over as well as they are requiring time of use only plans on NEM 2.0.

You mind sharing any links or details of this? I tried following the latest info but didn't find this, only push back from the PUC against the utlities. I seriously doubt they will change the existing decisions that are in place for residential 1.0 and 2.0 through the next few years. Doesn't mean it won't change with a new governor and new puc appointments.

[J.P.M.]

Yes, I have a "depends" case.

After being out out of the market for solar for 3 years, I am jumping back in.

In our case, the case for solar "depends" on if you think it will increase the value of your house.

The wife wholely believes so, and depends on that argument to encourage us to proceed getting a PV system.

(J.P.M.-I live in in your hood-might be sending a note, or two, your way).

Seeing as how there are no PM's on this forum,. sending me much of anything outside of this forum will be tough.

IMHO, and based on several conversations with real estate slugs and home appraisers, as well as keeping a pretty good, but admittedly narrow focus on prices in my HOA, and being the guy on the HOA board that reviews and recommends action to the Arch. Rev. Comm., at this time, and in my neighborhood, and perhaps the rest of north San Diego county, PV does not appear to be increasing the value of residential real estate around here.

To the degree I'm correct in my somewhat narrow focus (but I believe not unusual in CA and probably a good portion if not all of the U.S. to the point of being common), if the goal is reduction of electric bills, as seems to be the dominant reason, then PV is probably best looked on as one measure of many to be done to achieve that goal of reduced spending for electricity service.

If what seems to be the common sense approach of doing what produces the most bang for the buck first is the chosen way to go, then PV will be way down the list of things to do - it's usually the least cost effective as well as one of the most costly measures to be taken.

But, like I often say, opinions vary, and they're like noses - everyone has their own. Just that some are more informed and reality based.

To those who claim PV generally increases residential housing values I say, follow the money when you see /hear/read such statements. Besides, a thing is only worth what someone is willing to pay, and more than a few people, believe it or not, sincerely and genuinely believe that solar is not cost effective or for them for a lot of other reasons as well. That alone will decrease the pool of available buyers for a PV equipped home. Lots of other reason as well that we've about beat to death around here.

[kmm]

Took your advice from 3 years ago and reduced my electric use by purchasing a new HVAC system. Reduced the size of my current PV proposal by about 20%. The original HVAC was installed when the house was built circa 1990.

[reader2580]

At 5,000 kWh/yr., you're probably an exception to U.S. usage that tests the rule of profligate energy use. You are to be commended.

If/when your POCO begins mandating T.O.U. tariffs, you'll indeed be better off, financially at least, avoiding usage at peak times, as will most folks.

A lot of people would still think I use entirely too much electricity. I run my A/C nonstop from around June 1st into September. I set my A/C at 75 degrees and don't change the temperature when not at home. The A/C would take forever to drop the temperature around 5 pm when I get home. I plan to at least increase the temperature during the morning this upcoming summer. I do set backs with heat, but I use natural gas that can recover fairly quickly.