From Lead to Tin to produce flexible solar cells looks interesting

[Guest]

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/11/161122111834.htm

[inetdog]

Interesting, but miles away from commercial application.

[SunEagle]

I read an article that stated the DOE believes that by 2030 the cost of solar pv will be about $0.03/kWh for a Utility size system, $0.04/kWh for a commercial sized system and $0.05/kWh for home sized systems. Thus making solar a very low cost way to generate electrical power.

The problem that was mentioned that even though the cost to generate electricity via solar would be very low it still would be only available 30% of the time which would make it still very costly to be used 24/7 through some form of storage process.

So IMO and even the DOE the cost of solar pv cells can drop down to pennies but due to the limited time it can be used and the added cost of storing the energy it produces does not really make it a low cost electrical power source and will not create a "gold rush" of people to get it installed.

[Guest]

I beg to differ . I think supercapacitors will be a game changer in those time spans.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...1121162043.htm

Supercaps are $5 for 500 farad 2.7V now! 6 in series will easily start your car

[SunEagle]

I beg to differ . I think supercapacitors will be a game changer in those time spans.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...1121162043.htm

Supercaps are $5 for 500 farad 2.7V now! 6 in series will easily start your car

Caps are good for high discharge and short duration. Last time I looked useful sunlight on the best day was only 7 hours and the worst was maybe 2. So you would need some other form of energy source for 14 to 22 hours a day and sometimes 24 hours on days without any due to bad weather.

That would require billions upon billions of capacitors discharging at staged intervals all day long. Please add that up at $5 / 500 farad and then get back to me on how much you think it will cost.

[Mike90250]

only the top 10-20% of cap charge is usable for high power. Cars only need 10 seconds to crank. A cap battery replacement will not heat the glow plugs on my tractor and then crank it. A battery assisted by a cap could be useful.

[DanKegel]

only the top 10-20% of cap charge is usable for high power..

Even if you use a DC-DC converter designed to handle the supercap's steadily decreasing voltage during discharge?

[Mike90250]

I'll admit. I've not looked for a DC-DC with an input of 15V - 3V and 1KW output @ 12V. i don't think it's feasible.

[Andygt02]

I read an article that stated the DOE believes that by 2030 the cost of solar pv will be about $0.03/kWh for a Utility size system, $0.04/kWh for a commercial sized system and $0.05/kWh for home sized systems. Thus making solar a very low cost way to generate electrical power.

The problem that was mentioned that even though the cost to generate electricity via solar would be very low it still would be only available 30% of the time which would make it still very costly to be used 24/7 through some form of storage process.

So IMO and even the DOE the cost of solar pv cells can drop down to pennies but due to the limited time it can be used and the added cost of storing the energy it produces does not really make it a low cost electrical power source and will not create a "gold rush" of people to get it installed.

At those prices it makes sense to oversize on a massive scale, to the point where even the cloudiest December days are producing more than enough power. Falling storage costs will take care of the rest - all we need is the political will and the production capacity. India has plans to be 100% renewable before 2050, but even if the products of world's solar and wind manufacturing was being installed in India every year, it's not enough. Not even close.

[DanKegel]

I'll admit. I've not looked for a DC-DC with an input of 15V - 3V and 1KW output @ 12V. i don't think it's feasible.

There are a number of papers about high power bidirectional dc-dc converters for supercapacitors,
so it's probably possible given enough engineering.
But I seem to recall the economics aren't really there for supercapacitors in high energy applications yet?
TI's got an application note http://www.ti.com/lit/ug/slva726/slva726.pdf showing how to do it for tiny 15 watt applications.
If supercapacitors get better, I'm sure controllers would follow.

[PNjunction]

In regards to the article, it makes it appear that ALL panels produced today contain lead in the manufacturing process. Not so sure of that.

The simplest solution if that is a concern is to use Herasol silver-metallization paste which does not contain lead oxide.

The secondary question is that while tin based perovskite cells have advanced in efficiency, it appears that degradation still has to be tackled.

Like most solar breakthroughs, I see it as an investor pump, with a touch of environmental drama as the hook.

[inetdog]

In regards to the article, it makes it appear that ALL panels produced today contain lead in the manufacturing process. Not so sure of that.

The simplest solution if that is a concern is to use Herasol silver-metallization paste which does not contain lead oxide.

The secondary question is that while tin based perovskite cells have advanced in efficiency, it appears that degradation still has to be tackled.

Like most solar breakthroughs, I see it as an investor pump, with a touch of environmental drama as the hook.

The implication that all solar cells currently use lead in the manufacturing process is false and is probably not intended. Just the result of poor writing with an overly generalized headline.

To me it seems that the research deals entirely with replacing the lead perovskite with tin perovskite in cells which are NOT even in production yet for general use AFAIK.

Silicon based cells would use lead only in the tab soldering and possibly in the metalization for the electrodes, and as you note lead free metalization paste is available. And general purpose solder has been lead free for years.

[PNjunction]

I get it now. Yes, lead oxide and silver are part of the screen printing process that get the contact lines to stay stuck on the silicon.

But they want to do away with the minute amounts of lead, and also silver in that process and replace it with tin, which still needs help in regards to degradation.

Ok cool - bring it to market. But that doesn't guarantee global participation on the open market. That's the OTHER side of the story that financiers and investors will have to deal with. Real world.

I suppose the question is what amount of solar panel production equals the harm to the environment that comes from one idiot illegally dumping his lead acid automotive battery in the dump?

Obviously that should never happen. Entrepeneurs should set up solar-panel recycling centers when and IF the tin-based perovskite panels become feasable for 20 year timeframes.

[inetdog]

I get it now. Yes, lead oxide and silver are part of the screen printing process that get the contact lines to stay stuck on the silicon.

But they want to do away with the minute amounts of lead, and also silver in that process and replace it with tin, which still needs help in regards to degradation.

Funny, that is not how I read it. A sure sign that whichever is right it is poorly written.

I see it as saying that lead perovskites will be replaced as the active element with tin perovskites. Nothing to do with silicon cells at all.

[SunEagle]

At those prices it makes sense to oversize on a massive scale, to the point where even the cloudiest December days are producing more than enough power. Falling storage costs will take care of the rest - all we need is the political will and the production capacity. India has plans to be 100% renewable before 2050, but even if the products of world's solar and wind manufacturing was being installed in India every year, it's not enough. Not even close.

Unfortunately it isn't politics or money but physics. If you do the numbers of RE power generation, where it will work, how far it has to be transmitted, where it needs to be consumed, and how much that will be consumed, the numbers of 100% RE get harder and harder to reach.

Add on the fact of population growth along with the need to increase power consumption in a 3rd world nation to a growing industrialized nation and that goal of 100% RE goes out even farther.

The only way to reach it is to find a way to reduce the consumption through efficiency improvement and population reduction. Then some high % of RE may be reachable.