Buying vs prepaid lease Solar Panels or Replacing Ac/Heating Unit

[patrocle]

Hello,
I am about to lease solar panels with Solar City, i am all most at the end of just signing the contract,so they can install.

Now, i got this info during their quote for leasing:
>Lease Payments terms: 1st year monthly payment: $220 w/0 upfront payment ( 20 year term - 0% anual rate increase.
>Electricity Prices: Solar city cost per kWh : 20.93 cents, 24.62 cents - 27.77 cents (avoided utility cost per kwh)
>Your first year Savings: 13% - 24%, average monthly savings $ 455 - 855 (estimate electricity savings based on 20.93 cents cost per kwh)
>Average Monthly bill: $296 Before solar (utility bill) and $226-258 after solar. (up to $220 $10-$45)
>Warranty included/covered for those 20 years.

My home is about 1600 sqf , 2 story home and i had summers that my bill was around $450-500/m and high as $800/m (2 people in home and in july we had family over for a month and a/c
was running non stop,so that where the $800 come in. So i decided to look into getting solar or buy a bigger a/c and heating unit as the one we have is in top of the home as combo and the last guy that come and checked the unit,said that we may need to get a bigger unit with more tons.
I have Carrier Gas Heating/Electric Cooling combo
Model: 48SX-036080321AA
And based on my research is a 3 ton, and it cool s $1225 sqf, unless i am wrong.

So at this point i need to make a decision as a can't afford this high bill on the running a/c in the summer, also we have replaced windows with dual glass, and try to cut in devices that are one, but looks like bill is the same with very little difference.Also the upstairs master bed room is been hit with sun from about 12 pm where the sun is in top of the house and then all the way
till 6,7,8 pm! So the master where we sleep it gets really hot during summer! So a/c runs quite a bit.
>Here is few numbers of the kwh consumed:
5/19 to 6/17 - 1.465.000000 kwh ($425)
6/18 to 7/19 - 2.515.000000 kwh ($840)
7/20 to 8/18 - 2.336.000000 kwh ($780)
8/19 to 9/19 - 1.341.000000 kwh ($370)
So you can see the summer is crazy , how much kwh this home consumes.


Anyway,
To buy the solar not sure if i can do it with my income, credit score maybe around somewhere at 650, so i option for to lease the system.

Any opinions what will be best to do?
Thank you and appreciate for your
advice.

P.
Around Sacramento,California.

Picture:

[youngesttim]

Greetings!

Do you have PG&E or SMUD for provider?

Leasing solar panels not the way to go...Have you thought about a HERO loan? https://www.heroprogram.com

Is your attic/ceiling well insulated?

Do you have a south facing roof?

[silversaver]

Your usuage is very high for a smaller home without Electric Vehicle especially with only 2 people.

Your high bills are really from Summer AC usage. A 3 tons AC unit should cover 1600sq ft home. The problem is every house were different where the air handler weren't place at optimum location. You might feel cooler in one place and hotter in another. A experience HVAC guy can re-arrange the air feeding for you, but difficult.

I'm having the similar problem that I need to run 2 ACs during Summer. The master bed room weren't cool enough even running a 5 tons at night. I choose the mini-split route and it work great. The unit is very quiet/saving energy.

I won't suggest you with SC lease especially that rate weren't good.

PS. There's lot great price mini split out there, you need to find someone really know about mini splits in order to save money. Most of the HVAC guys out there don't know much about mini splits.... The labor should be from $200 to $400 per unit

.mini split.jpg

[Logan5]

sounds like the roof is either uninsulated or under insulated. This likely includes breaches in the vapor barrier. You could consider a separate AC unit for the master bed room for sleeping, Allow the rest of the house to rise naturally, then use programmable thermostats follow your daily room use, with override when room is in use other times. Great you have Nat gas heat, HW and cooking, these are solar killers when electric. Either way you have a lot of work to do and money to spend before you should even consider solar PV.

[J.P.M.]

My condolences on doing business with SolarCity.

You are living in an energy sieve. You are not a candidate for solar from anyone at this time, especially a lease and particularly from SolarCity.

You are in serious need of an energy audit and some conservation measures.

Until you figure out why the usage is so high, and how it can be reduced, throwing solar at the problem, with solar being almost always the most expensive way to lower an electric bill, is somewhat analogous to having a very leaky boat and instead of plugging the leaks and caulking the hull at a cost of $100, you simply go out and rent a bigger pump to keep up with the leaks and spend $100/month for it.

After energy conservation measures, which in all probability will save you as much or more than the difference between what you currently pay to the power company, and the combination of what you will pay to the lease company and the power company after solar, consider sane and effective solar measures. The system will be smaller, and thus less expensive, and you'll have time to understand that buying is a better choice than leasing.

Not my money/house/ life. But, I think you are making a bad choice as a result of your solar ignorance and throwing money at the problem when a better solution exists. I'd cancel the deal and start educating myself.

Welcome to the neighborhood and the forum of few(er) illusions.

[Mike90250]

Strongly re-consider both installing and leaseing. Something else (insulation) needs to be addressed first, and then purchase the system. The lease locks you up in your house for 20 years (the term of the lease) and is unclear how you exit the lease, because "They" always find a unfavorable way to end the lease (large buyout, tax libality, we don't do those anymore, that company was sold and we just service the lease.....

[patrocle]

Greetings!

Do you have PG&E or SMUD for provider?

Leasing solar panels not the way to go...Have you thought about a HERO loan? https://www.heroprogram.com

Is your attic/ceiling well insulated?

Do you have a south facing roof?

Hello!,
I have PG&E.
Hero not available in my area looks like.
And yes, i done some more reading and i see people want to stay away from leasing.
The house is about 150SE (South/East)

There is no attic where the master bedroom is i have high ceillings,will add a picture in first post.

Thank you,

[Logan5]

High under insulated ceilings are common. dry wall must be removed and re insulated, sometimes they can add face boards and increase the thickness of insulation. Also you could consider foam insulation.

[patrocle]

Your usuage is very high for a smaller home without Electric Vehicle especially with only 2 people.

Your high bills are really from Summer AC usage. A 3 tons AC unit should cover 1600sq ft home. The problem is every house were different where the air handler weren't place at optimum location. You might feel cooler in one place and hotter in another. A experience HVAC guy can re-arrange the air feeding for you, but difficult.

I'm having the similar problem that I need to run 2 ACs during Summer. The master bed room weren't cool enough even running a 5 tons at night. I choose the mini-split route and it work great. The unit is very quiet/saving energy.

I won't suggest you with SC lease especially that rate weren't good.

PS. There's lot great price mini split out there, you need to find someone really know about mini splits in order to save money. Most of the HVAC guys out there don't know much about mini splits.... The labor should be from $200 to $400 per unit

.[ATTACH=CONFIG]n334073[/ATTACH]

Yes, really high. We had some family over around june to july and i guess a/c and washer/dryer runed little more than normal.
And you are right, the guy from some a/c heating company said that unit was only for 1600sqf home , i just remember now but also he said that because the house is 1600sqf , the unit and duck,windows must work perfect, but he said will be best if i put a 4,5 ton unit and verify duck work to make sure no air leaks.

You mention the mini-split system, so by running that only for the master , how is the bill in the summer?
Thanks!

[patrocle]

sounds like the roof is either uninsulated or under insulated. This likely includes breaches in the vapor barrier. You could consider a separate AC unit for the master bed room for sleeping, Allow the rest of the house to rise naturally, then use programmable thermostats follow your daily room use, with override when room is in use other times. Great you have Nat gas heat, HW and cooking, these are solar killers when electric. Either way you have a lot of work to do and money to spend before you should even consider solar PV.

Yes, it could be. The house is built in 1977 and i don't think no one did anything related to the heat problem or to check to make sure those are still doing their part.So i may consider the separate unit as Silversaver suggested. I have run for few months a electric room a/c unit from home depot,and that may cause little in the kwh... was too hot.

High under insulated ceilings are common. dry wall must be removed and re insulated, sometimes they can add face boards and increase the thickness of insulation. Also you could consider foam insulation.

Right now , i have to concentrate on two things:
1.Make sure Master Bedroom walls are insulated right
2.Master Bedroom Ceilling is insulated and roof is vented right.

Will a roof top ridge help? Now is cold here too, but i must do something before the next summer.

Thanks,

[patrocle]

My condolences on doing business with SolarCity.

You are living in an energy sieve. You are not a candidate for solar from anyone at this time, especially a lease and particularly from SolarCity.

You are in serious need of an energy audit and some conservation measures.

Until you figure out why the usage is so high, and how it can be reduced, throwing solar at the problem, with solar being almost always the most expensive way to lower an electric bill, is somewhat analogous to having a very leaky boat and instead of plugging the leaks and caulking the hull at a cost of $100, you simply go out and rent a bigger pump to keep up with the leaks and spend $100/month for it.

After energy conservation measures, which in all probability will save you as much or more than the difference between what you currently pay to the power company, and the combination of what you will pay to the lease company and the power company after solar, consider sane and effective solar measures. The system will be smaller, and thus less expensive, and you'll have time to understand that buying is a better choice than leasing.

Not my money/house/ life. But, I think you are making a bad choice as a result of your solar ignorance and throwing money at the problem when a better solution exists. I'd cancel the deal and start educating myself.

Welcome to the neighborhood and the forum of few(er) illusions.

I am new to the solar thing, but reading and seen what others have to say will help me do the right thing. I am going to pause this lease for now , even my self by reading some of this articles
about leasing,not sure if i want to get into a leasing, when i know i will not own them. So yes buying is a better choice for sure.

[patrocle]

Strongly re-consider both installing and leaseing. Something else (insulation) needs to be addressed first, and then purchase the system. The lease locks you up in your house for 20 years (the term of the lease) and is unclear how you exit the lease, because "They" always find a unfavorable way to end the lease (large buyout, tax libality, we don't do those anymore, that company was sold and we just service the lease.....

Yes, i have consider not to lease, till a fix few things regarding master wall insulation/roof venting then will consider again and for sure buying them.

[cebury]

I lived n a house just like that with very similar issues. The tiny space between vaulted ceilings and roof had insulation, but those ceilings were hot as you could tell from various infrared temp guns and house audits where they use the infrared camera.

You need the whole house audit. Pge will schedule it for you, go to their website and there are buttons for "reduce your bill" and the like. They even have rebates for major upgrades and can pay for a large chunk of upgrades if your low income.

The AC isn't great, but atleast its 12 SEER. A newer unit will definitely perform better, but the cost to upgrade to like 15 wil be several thousands. One of the easiest tests that a home audit will perform is a blower door test and a duct test. You could find major leaks just in your ducting that can be fixed by hand. I followed all my ducting and found one branch was completely disconnected Blowing into the attic. Just reconnecting it by hand and sealing with mastic helped. Some city departments will due home testing for free, mine does.

[cebury]

Oh if you decide to buy a new unit and then go with a larger size, like 3.5 or 4 ton, just know that there are calculations that determine the appropriate sized return vents based on your various room supply. My house had an undersized return vent, so I upgraded that from like 16 to 18" as well. So if yours is undersized just upgrading the ac isn't as efficient, due to pressure, as doing both new unit and return.

But with single zone cooling being fairly noninvasive nowadays I'd consider JPMs suggestion of perhaps just doing the master bedroom as it is much cheaper.

[J.P.M.]

I am new to the solar thing, but reading and seen what others have to say will help me do the right thing. I am going to pause this lease for now , even my self by reading some of this articles
about leasing,not sure if i want to get into a leasing, when i know i will not own them. So yes buying is a better choice for sure.

FWIW, I believe you have made a wise choice - honest.

Get the audit. Examine the recommendations and learn about programs to help pay for the recommendations you choose.

This is all about reducing your energy use. That will lower your bills. It's not simply about throwing solar panels at a high electric bill. On the list of things to do to, usually arranged in some manner but often with the most cost effective - the "most bang for the buck" measures closer to the top of the list, and probably way down the list at the bottom, is using solar. I'd suggest getting your mind into the idea that solar will be the last thing done - if at all - not because it's a waste, but that it's the most expensive way, dollar for dollar to lower an electric bill.