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SunnyBoy 3000 US, 18 BP Solar 175B panels. -
SMUD will be switching me to the TOU rate plan as a solar user. I called yesterday and tried to see if they have an estimator that might use my existing usage to give me an idea on how different my costs would be, but they don't. TOU scares me.Comment
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SMUD will be switching me to the TOU rate plan as a solar user. I called yesterday and tried to see if they have an estimator that might use my existing usage to give me an idea on how different my costs would be, but they don't. TOU scares me. The peak summer hours at 30 cents a kWh are going to add up. And I have no idea how to estimate future costs since the rates change hourly. Below are SMUD's You rates if anyone is curious.
TOU time periods and rates
Off-Peak hours are 9 p.m. to 9 a.m., Monday through Friday, and includes all hours on weekends and holidays. The rate is lowest and applies 66% of the year at 8.67¢ per kilowatt hour (kWh).
Peak hours are 9 a.m. to 9 p.m., Monday through Friday, all year. This rate is 14.67¢ per kWh and applies 31% of the year.
Summer Super Peak hours are 4 p.m. to 7 p.m., Monday through Friday, from June 1 through September 30. The rate is highest during these hours at 30.93¢ per kWh and applies just 3% of the year.Comment
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I know, by way of analogy, it sounds like they'd allow an elephant to have it's way with a football, but the short answer to your question is yes. That's the way it's written in the SDG & E tariffs, NEM blurbs, etc: "For systems smaller than 1MW".
I agree, not realistic, but it ain't my POCO. My purpose in citing that, and that many systems > 10 kW that I'm certain exist - one of which is within sight of my desk and about 4 months old - is as comment/refutation to the statement the OP reports as coming from someone at SMUD who told him the "law" (CPUC regs ?) was limiting system size to 10 kW. Further reading of the SMUD info led me to the conclusion that SMUD does not limit system size to 10 kW as noted, but that their $500 incentive would disappear for oversized systems.
Further to that, SMUD has a tariff for reimbursement of overgeneration as would happen with oversized systems, making me suspect that oversizing is allowed by SMUD.
Also, after more rooting around in their stuff, and similar to other POCOs, at least in CA, it looks like they may have a 30 kW size limit before more involved requirements kick in.
I also noted, as you did, the incorrect reference to system size as "kwh" (sic) and not kW. That folks don't know the importance of the difference, or the confusion and consequent problems imcorrect use can cause (as your confusion serves as a clear, simple example), or care, is, to me, an indication of their ignorance of the basics.
Another example of such confusion, IMO, is on the SMUD solar FAQ sheet under "costs", and "What is a properly sized system" that's confusing and sort of implies, well, read it :
" SMUD will neither rebate nor provide incentives for any system larger than your current home's load. If you consume 10,000 kWh per year, we will rebate a system that produces no more than 10,000 kWh".
I'd also wonder if that's where some of the 10 kW "size" limit business crept in.
System sizes are, for better or worse, described in STC Watts or STC kW. To compare a system's size (in kW) to a home's load ( in kWh) as SMUD does in the quote above, is incorrect and confusing, and BTW, is that an annual load or what ? And further, assuming SMUD's meaning and intent is to limit incentives to systems sized to produce no more than annual household kWh use, how is annual system (estimated ?) output determined ?
Add to the above: Further rooting around, and more go figure: SMUD resolution 15 - 07 -xx, adopted July 16, 2015 that sets rates, policies and schedules, sheet No.1 - NEM - 1, effective Jan., 01/2016, under III, (A, Eligibility), (6):
"The generating capacity can be a maximum of 3,000 kilowatts".
Last edited by J.P.M.; 10-01-2016, 11:15 AM.Comment
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Do you have a smart meter already?
You can ask for your hourly usage which can help you make your own estimates.
TOU helps a LOT for most PG&E solar users.
If you have lots of use at 5PM-7PM it may not help you that much in SMUD.
My guess is it'll help you some, depends on when the hot tub and any other larger consumers of electricity run.
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This thread is a perfect example of why we should scrap the net metering scheme. It wastes resources (ie ideal solar roof space) and creates needless bureaucracy. If you are a excess power producer then expect to sell your power into the national grid at wholesale prices just like any other producer.....its called net billing. Need a better payback.......build a bigger or more efficient system.Comment
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I don't see in this thread that net metering is causing ideal solar roof space to be wasted.
If anything I see that net metering is providing a chance for *some* of that space to be used.
If instead of NEM the OP had to sell his production at average wholesale price it wouldn't be nearly as attractive an investment.
(and it would be average wholesale since spot price wouldn't be feasible at this scale)
Not to mention the financial risks of such an investment would be much higher - there'd be much less predictability of future financial benefits.
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I am an SCE customer that had my system installed in July. I was told that SCE caps at 120% of usage - and that is what I asked for and was approved. System size was 12.48 kWh DCComment
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As a pretty firm believer in free enterprise, and for several other reasons. I agree that net metering is not the best way to go to save the planet or reduce dependence on foreign sources of energy. In the end, I think subsidies like NEM and tax credits slows product improvements by reducing competition, and also by allowing substandard companies to survive due to contrived savings that inflate prices.
But, it is what it is and it ain't going away anytime soon. As long as POCO's get NEM forced down their throat and, rightly or wrongly, B.S. and game the system, vendors and user's will do the same. Curse the wind.
I suppose NEM does create some bureaucracy and that's never a good thing, but I'm not sure I understand where you're going with wasting ideal roof space. What would be a better use of the space, if any ? I never quite considered roof real estate to have much of a value other than shelter, at least for residences.
As for better payback, using less energy is the best payback around, but I see few if any folks doing so. Building bigger/more efficient systems is a bit like buying a bigger bilge pump to keep a boat afloat and not addressing the leaky hull. You want lower electric bills - use less electricity. Works flawlessly every time with no B.S.
I'd let solar or other alternate supply means compete with conventional supply sources, get some real competition going, and watch solar processes improve and get (or be perceived as) more cost effective than the competition. Or, leave the market due to inability to compete. The way it is now, to some it seems NEM and subsidies such as tax credits game the system to R.E.'s market advantage and remove or slow the pace of improvements in equipment and price reductions that true competition would force.
I'm one of the biggest fans of R.E. I know of, but If R.E. cannot stand alone, let the market figure that out. In effect, get strong or die. In the end, consumers will be the beneficiaries of a stronger, more sensible and more sustainable solar industry. As it stands now, solar needs gov. intervention and support to survive. Without it, it will die. I offer Nevada NEM as n example.
Sort of like gov. welfare for business breeding a permanent underclass in the business world. I don't think anything except bureaucracy and corruption has ever thrived by dragging on the public tit.
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I live in southern Indiana....coal country, in reality the most polluting type of sulfur and mercury pollution you can imagine. We build smoke stacks so high that Maryland and New York complain about Indiana pollution reaching their pristine states. It all blows west to east..........
Well for the last 20 years China and Mexico have been taking on this devils choice......manufacturing in Indiana has been in decline. But the big stinkers persist.....a legacy.
The "Clean Power Plan" is a death sentence for the Indiana coal companies and the dinosaur coal power producing plants that rely on this type of fuel. 20,000 jobs are on the line....as you can imagine it is a huge political football in Indiana.
Electrical power is produced at $.025 per kWh at these coal powered plants,
So all you guys receiving $.35 to $.50 kWh in CA for your power just sit back and think about the economic dynamics.......your subsidy is just not sustainable.
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It sure ain't sustainable, but ignorance is bliss as long as the party lasts.
Actually, the average price of residential power in CA is probably closer to ~ $0.25/kWh or so. The price paid by POCO's to power producers is of the order of $0.03 to $0.05/kWh. Most of the stuck pig screaming around here references worst case prices pretty close to what you list, but that's not what most folks pay for most of their power.
In my rooting around for ranting ammunition on this thread, for example, I found that the TOU rates the OP pays to SMUD aren't as severe as you note.
SMUD TOU rates:
9 P.M to 9 A.M year round: $0.0867/kWh
9.P.M to 9 A.M year round: $0.1467/kWh
Except:
4 P.M. to 7 P.M weekdays 06/01 to 09/01 : $0.3094/kWh. (approx. 260 hrs.out of 8,760/yr.)
Plus $18.00/mo. per meter.
I'd wonder if solar is even cost effective at those rates and some time shifting of loads.
When I lived in upstate NY, I didn't hear too much about or see stuff coming from Ohio westward, but I did see a lot of local stuff from power plants and steel mills. I did see the effects of acid rain on the lee side of most of the Adirondacks. It even convinced the power plant folks I know that something needed to be done about the boilers with no scrubbers and 500 ft. stacks. Outfits I worked for made a few bucks and I learned a lot refitting stuff like that.
New industry and new technology are and have always been the bane of the status quo. While not callous about job loss and the strain it puts on lifestyle, things do change, and change of that type is never easy. But, it will not stop. I'm sure people working in retail will take a hit when they're sucking hind tit due to people buying on Amazon. Politicians and policy wonks will always be with us to profit somehow from the melee.Comment
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Well, as of 2016, the California Public Utilities Commission mandates this (bold emphasis mine):
This applies across the board to residential, commercial and even PV farms. For the latter, though, the compensation for excess production over local use is at a very low per kWh rate which would not make it economically favorable. Instead they would need to apply as a generator/producer rather than a net user.Customers who install small solar, wind, biogas, and fuel cell generation facilities (1 MW or less) to serve all or a portion of onsite electricity needs are eligible for the state's net metering program.
Note also that the rules were different before 2016, and I have not found a copy of them yet.
The rebate program, separate from NEM, is apparently is limited to large investor-owned POCOs, So municipal providers like SMUD, Palo Alto, and others, were never part of that system. Only PG&E, SCE, and SDG&E.Last edited by inetdog; 10-02-2016, 02:19 AM.SunnyBoy 3000 US, 18 BP Solar 175B panels.Comment
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I believe we're on the same page. The CSI rebates were always limited to the big 3 I.O.U.'s (investor owned utilities). Other rebates from other service providers were never disallowed. Some few were, in some situations, more favorable to consumers than the CSI program.
NEM is a separate issue from any rebates, CSI based or other.
For this thread, my purpose was to raise the idea that, as it seems from an only slightly more than cursory view of their literature, there is ample reason to believe SMUD does not limit residential PV system sizes to 6 or 10 kW as the OP was apparently led to believe, and therefore worth checking out. To me, it looks like someone at SMUD conveyed incorrect information.Comment
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It'd be nice to know exactly how the SMUD rep stated it to him., coulda been along the lines of "we established our maximum based on 12 months prior usage in compliance with the ca cpuc mandates". Which effectively means they may do whatever they please if they aren't the big 3, etc. maybe it was interpreted b him to mean every POCO also should abide by the hard fast rule of 12 months prior with no consideration of new purchases. It is a fact PGE allowed/allows for new purchase considerations to go above and beyond the 110% last 12 months. Also, their kWh calc for the year was very conservative, estimating numbers way lower than pvwatts or any other kWh est calcd by the installer
s who gave me proposals.Last edited by cebury; 10-02-2016, 09:21 PM.Comment
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Agreed on how things were stated. None of us except the OP was there. However, unless the SMUD regs. have changed since what I was reading were written, I couldn't find anything about 10 kW max. system size. While we'll probably never know, from my limited perusal of the available SMUD stuff on the net, including tariff info and NEM stuff, my money's on the OP speaking to someone at SMUD who was confused/new/misspoken until I learn different.Comment
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