Questions on Proposal Comparison

[igerstein]

Good lord, go with the guy you've been working with for the past 3 years.

[jwasilko]

Good lord, go with the guy you've been working with for the past 3 years.

For sure!

[J.P.M.]

Good lord, go with the guy you've been working with for the past 3 years.

Seems like a logical choice, almost a no brainer, and one many of us would probably make, but none of us are onsite. With a that, it seems like it's sort of vendor D's business to lose at this point.

[fordmantpw]

Good lord, go with the guy you've been working with for the past 3 years.

I get that, but I wanted honest opinions on the systems that have been speced, equipment used, etc. That was the main reason for asking. I'm willing to pay a little more for comparable systems based on the effort the guy has put into my system already, but I won't pay more for a lesser system. That's what I needed help determining...are the systems comparable or is one head and shoulders above the rest.

[huge]

He's giving you the most expensive components. I would say it's at least as good as the others. If you want more production, just have him put an extra panel on there

[fordmantpw]

Thank you very much!

[rmk9785e]

Not to imply anything, but, the CA prices might be considered an example of selling to the market, or as it is sometimes thought, tacit price fixing, although there are probably too many players in the solar market for that to actually work.

'Selling to the market' is more like it. Players in this market have a good idea of what others charge so they keep their proposals in the same ballpark. It will continue until a disrupter comes in.

[J.P.M.]

'Selling to the market' is more like it. Players in this market have a good idea of what others charge so they keep their proposals in the same ballpark. It will continue until a disrupter comes in.

A good part of selling to the market involves what prices are for alternative ways to accomplish a goal. It's not unlike price competition in reverse. If I have a product that will do the same thing as something that costs the consumer, say, $100, and I can make my product for, say $1.00 and make money doing it, I'd be leaving money on the table by selling for much less than the $100 the competition is charging even though I'd be profitable at the $1.00 price point. The $100 product would either come down in price or disappear.

To some extent it's the same with solar pricing. Say the unlikely happened and the price of power in CA were to for some reason drop by half. In that event the price of PV would drop. How much ? Maybe by half, maybe not, but I'd bet quite a bit. Same if the price of power doubled. Solar prices would increase, or at least have less downward competitive pressure from solar commoditization.

I'm quite sure it's much more complicated than that, but the idea that PV prices have come down somewhat while power prices have not is partly a result of having a regulated power pricing market which, along with the artificial price support the solar tax credits give to the PV market, and a press and copious advertising that's generally solar supportive all have an impact on the free market and skews the concept of market forces determining price to some degree.

[fordmantpw]

Well, we decided on option 6 after talking with the contractor and him dropping the price to $2.84/W. I think that was a perfect compromise for both of us. We hope to be up and producing power by early October. Thanks for the help all!

[Qtips]

personally I would stay away form the fronius/Tigo solution form company A.
If there is room to fit 13.78kw of 265W modules, have you thought of trying 275W QCell? maybe from company D

On what basis are you steering people away from Tigo and Fronius? I have a Tigo and Power One Aurora setup with no issues so far. Tigo is a reliable product.

I would instead advise people to stay away from any company whose survival may be highly questionable. Enphase is definitely struggling and seems to be teetering. I'd hate to see Enphase go, but if I were in the market for a new install, I would not touch Enphase, at least not without stocking up on plenty of spare microinverters, spare trunk cables, etc, but the cost would then add up. Enphase may be here today, but it could be gone in a year in the same way that Enecys did.

For U.S.-based customers, I can't find a single rational economic basis for having batteries on residential solar systems. If my primary concern is power backup, then a cheaper and a far more durable/reliable solution is to have a grid-tied backup generator.

Also, there is no economic justification to install residential batteries if either peak shifting or peak shaving are the only concerns. Perhaps the economics may change in the future which may make peak shifting or peak shaving economically justifiable, but that's not the case at the present time.

All in all, batteries on residential solar systems are an economic non-starter in the U.S. If Enphase is betting on a new lease on life based on a residential battery strategy, best of luck.

[ButchDeal]

On what basis are you steering people away from Tigo and Fronius? I have a Tigo and Power One Aurora setup with no issues so far. Tigo is a reliable product.

Well on the basis that
1) two different companies to deal with for any issues
2) tigo is now mostly owned by SMA
3) Fronius inverters have had a high failure rate for us at least
4) most costly than SolarEdge for less efficient system
5) two different monitoring systems to deal with
6) Tigo is not as accepted for rapid shutdown capabilities

[Qtips]

Well on the basis that
1) two different companies to deal with for any issues

2) tigo is now mostly owned by SMA


3) Fronius inverters have had a high failure rate for us at least

4) most costly than SolarEdge for less efficient system


5) two different monitoring systems to deal with

6) Tigo is not as accepted for rapid shutdown capabilities

1. This objection makes absolutely no sense. Are you speaking from an installer's or owner's perspective? From an owner's perpective, if I have any warranty issues, I deal first and foremost with my installer and not the companies. From an installer's perspective, if you have micros, you'd deal with the manufacturer of the panel for the issue with the panel, but you'd deal with the microinverter company for issues with the micros. The same is true if you have a SolarEdge system. Now I have a Tigo-based system with Trinasmart panels, if my panel with optimizer need warranty work my installer would talk to Trina and not Tigo. For technical help on the optimizer, they'd talk to Tigo. You make absolutely no sense with this objection.

2. And your point is? With SMA as big daddy, Tigo is far more likely to stay in business, which is a HUGE plus.

3. And you point is? Ok, stay away from Fronius and get a SMA Sunnyboy then.

4. And I say SolarEdge with its proprietary system is a major reliability risk. If SolarEdge ever goes out of business (and most solar companies eventually will) and if your SolarEdge inverter goes bad (and ALL inverters regardless of brand will eventually go bad) then your SolarEdge-based system will become totally useless. You can't even plan for this by stocking up on SolarEdge inverters in case SolarEdge goes kaput because the SolarEdge system needs to be initialized by logging on to SolarEdge. With SolarEdge being gone, there is not way to initialize it.

5. Your statement is a totally inaccurate. A Tigo based system is monitored by Tigo and Tigo only.

6. Tigo shuts down in 1 second when the PV Safe button is pressed or when AC is disconnected at the main. How more rapid than 1 second do you need?

[ButchDeal]

1. This objection makes absolutely no sense. Are you speaking from an installer's or owner's perspective? From an owner's perpective, if I have any warranty issues, I deal first and foremost with my installer and not the companies. From an installer's perspective, if you have micros, you'd deal with the manufacturer of the panel for the issue with the panel, but you'd deal with the microinverter company for issues with the micros. The same is true if you have a SolarEdge system. Now I have a Tigo-based system with Trinasmart panels, if my panel with optimizer need warranty work my installer would talk to Trina and not Tigo. For technical help on the optimizer, they'd talk to Tigo. You make absolutely no sense with this objection.

Both. If you have a performance issue. you (or installer) has to deal with inverter company but inverter company will point finger at Tigo. Tigo will point finger at inverter company. Makes no difference if it is you or the installer the net result is it takes longer with this finger pointing, and two different monitoring sites.

2. And your point is? With SMA as big daddy, Tigo is far more likely to stay in business, which is a HUGE plus.

My point was that OP was asking about Fronius / Tigo combination. With SMA now in control finger pointing is more likely and SMA is trying to mirror SolarEdge so is likely to give all kinds of issues with third party inverter (Fronius).

3. And you point is? Ok, stay away from Fronius and get a SMA Sunnyboy then.

My statement was I would stay away from Fronius/tigo solution and you asked why. pay attention to your own question.

4. And I say SolarEdge with its proprietary system is a major reliability risk. If SolarEdge ever goes out of business (and most solar companies eventually will) and if your SolarEdge inverter goes bad (and ALL inverters regardless of brand will eventually go bad) then your SolarEdge-based system will become totally useless. You can't even plan for this by stocking up on SolarEdge inverters in case SolarEdge goes kaput because the SolarEdge system needs to be initialized by logging on to SolarEdge. With SolarEdge being gone, there is not way to initialize it.

That is your opinion. You can give it. You have experience with ONE system. Others here have experience with thousands...

BTW you are Totally BS wrong on SolarEdge needing to be initialized! it in no way does. We have several systems that have NO internet access. Talk about what you know about.

5. Your statement is a totally inaccurate. A Tigo based system is monitored by Tigo and Tigo only.

No I am not wrong. A fronius system is monitored by Fronius and Fronius only. Thus a Tigo/Fronius would be monitored by Tigo AND Fronius. with two different accounts, internet access points and BTW Tigo horrible module communications. Yes SolarEdge has some Zigbee issues but you don't have to use Zigbee, (that is the inverter to internet connection). SolarEdge has excelent inverter to optimizer communications. Tigo has poor monitor module to optimizer communications on many sites.

6. Tigo shuts down in 1 second when the PV Safe button is pressed or when AC is disconnected at the main. How more rapid than 1 second do you need?

Right but it is not always accepted for this. You also need a PV safe button where SolarEdge does not need an additional button.
You also still need fusing between multiple strings with Tigo but not with SolarEdge.

[Qtips]

Butchdeal is clearly a SolarEdge installer who is trying his worst to bash the competition by distortions, omissions, and misleading statements. His bias is oozing out of his ears. I see no point in further wasting my time with him.

[ButchDeal]

Actually no Qtips, I am not an installer. I manage installs, monitoring, and equipment pricing etc at an online market where we hire installers to install the equipment we order and ship to them. We BTW, installer enphase, Outback, Fronius, SMA, and others in addition to SolarEdge. I am the company technology expert and as such have to keep up with the current tech in all kinds of ways. I have put out no missleading or distortions on Tigo. Our CEO in fact has a Tigo system (his choice), and we have a few others. They are problematic and difficult. Maybe SMA can straighten them out and I look forward to seeing what SMA has to come up with. You on the other hand have experience with ONE system, yours. Sure you are happy with it, that is clear and you should be. But you are trying to talk tech about other products which making assumptions about. I wish you well.

[rmk9785e]

Back again with two more questions. I had our system installed and thanks to what I learned on this forum, it went quite well. Now I'm assisting a friend and the quotes they have received are inconsistent in the CEC AC ratings and first year production estimate for identical equipment by different vendors.
a- Their last 12 months power use was 11,386 kWh. Both vendors are quoting a system with 22 LG320N1C-G4 panels, SolarEdge P320 DC Optimizers, and SolarEdge SE7600A-US inverter. One of them is estimating first year output to be 11,386 kWh while the other is estimating it at 10,262kWh. The first gives their system CEC AC rating at 6,407kW and the second estimates it at 5,632kWh. Isn't there a simple formula to estimate these?
b- Secondly, in sizing the system, is there sufficient advantage to justify spending another $850 (after tax incentive) to go from 22 to 24 panels to increase first year output by 930kWh (and billing offset from 92% to 99%)?

[J.P.M.]

Back again with two more questions. I had our system installed and thanks to what I learned on this forum, it went quite well. Now I'm assisting a friend and the quotes they have received are inconsistent in the CEC AC ratings and first year production estimate for identical equipment by different vendors.
a- Their last 12 months power use was 11,386 kWh. Both vendors are quoting a system with 22 LG320N1C-G4 panels, SolarEdge P320 DC Optimizers, and SolarEdge SE7600A-US inverter. One of them is estimating first year output to be 11,386 kWh while the other is estimating it at 10,262kWh. The first gives their system CEC AC rating at 6,407kW and the second estimates it at 5,632kWh. Isn't there a simple formula to estimate these?
b- Secondly, in sizing the system, is there sufficient advantage to justify spending another $850 (after tax incentive) to go from 22 to 24 panels to increase first year output by 930kWh (and billing offset from 92% to 99%)?

Forget the CEC B.S. and the confusion you seem to have about what it is.

For a reasonable 1st approximation of annual output do this: Assuming your friend's proposed location has no major shading, get the zip code and proposed array orientation correct. Then, after reading the help/info screens a couple of times, run PVWatts with standard panels, use 10 % system losses instead of the 14 % default, and use that number. Don't lease, don't buy Sunpower and if in CA, don't pay more than about $3.25 - $3.50/STC Watt. Also, don't pay more than about 4X - 6X what those extra panels will produce in terms of annual savings.

[rmk9785e]

Thank you. Proceeded as advised. PVWatts gives a number closer to their previous 12 months power consumption.
The annual savings with 2 more panels will be about $170 while paying $850 so it is about 5X. Looks like the additional cost will be paid off in 5 years.