SolarEdge/LG vs SMA/Kyocera Solar Power System

[gatorbill]

Hi All,
First of all, thanks for all the great information I've been reading in this forum. It has helped me narrow down the proposals for a solar system for my house in San Diego.
Right now, I'm trying to decide between the following two proposals and I would appreciate any feedback from forum members.

SolarEdge/LG System
1. $20,919
2. 5.70 kW DC
3. 20 - LG Electronics 285 S1C-G4
4. Solar Edge SE5000A-US with Optimizers

SMA/Kyocera System
1. $20,325
2. 5.40 kW DC
3. 20 - Kyocera KU270-6MCA
4. SMA America Sunny Boy 5.0-1SP-US-40 with Secure Power Supply

Item	LG	Kyocera
Product Warranty Years	12	25
10 year performance guarantee	92.6%	90%
25 year performance guarantee	83.6%	80%

Item	Solar Edge	SMA
Inverter Warranty Years	12	10
Optimizer Warranty Years	25	NA

Overall the SolarEdge/LG system seems to be better performing, but I am concerned about the Optimizer failure rate becoming a problem as the system ages.

The Kyocera panels come with an enhanced 25-yr Product Warranty which is making that system very appealing.

[J.P.M.]

Since you ask:

1.) Warranties, either product or performance are more of a marketing tool than consumer protection. Panels seem to last a long time with most failures happening early after installation. System problems are most often installation glitches/errors that can happen with any system and are quickly remedied by reputable vendors. I'd spend more time/effort on vendor vetting and selection.
2.) Around San Diego, unless you have a very unusual situation - steep roof, ground mount, other remedial work, etc., paying more than ~~ $3.50/Watt (or less) before fed. tax credit is leaving money on the table. That includes installs on concrete or tile roofs.
3.) Either panel seems decent enough to me from the experiences of others in my HOA. SMA inverters are built like tanks.
4.) FWIW, overall, you could do worse. I'd still get quotes from the established electrical contractors in the area who sell solar. After you get their very best price, if it's higher than $3.25/Watt, tell them you want $3.25/Watt and see what they say. Then, negotiate.
5.) Equal electrical sized systems in the same location, orientation and duty will produce about equal annual output for as long as you'll own a system. Performance guarantees are about impossible to verify. Go for vendor quality, professionalism and integrity as your best warranty over promises that are hollow.
6.) Think long term value, not first cost alone. A few cents/Watt to a very good vendor is worth a small but tough and fairly negotiated premium.
7.) Get your roof inspected/serviced. PV will last a long time. Give the roof under it a higher probability of lasting as long. consider it cheap insurance. You will not be sorry. Have any work done by a contractor of your choosing and separate from the PV vendor who, most of the time around here, subs such work out the lowest bidder. Roof maint,/repairs are one of the last places to cheap out.

[huge]

If you're in San Diego, try Stellar solar. They have a sale for $3/watt which would be much cheaper than your quotes

[solarix]

I don't know why a lot of installers go with the more expensive brand PV panels like LG and Kyocera. PV panels are pretty much of a commodity anymore - almost all are high quality, and will easily go way longer than the warranty. Just go with a brand that is a large, mainstream company. Inverters on the other hand will do well to make their warranty period. I'm not betting on any electronics that is supposed to last 25 years in a hot roof environment. Think about someday those things failing one by one and who is going to replace them one by one..... Why pay more for a risk like that?

[gatorbill]

Thanks for the feedback so far.

Is the $3.25/Watt price for DC kW ? The quotes I have specify lower AC kW probably due by loses in the interconnects and the inverter ?

The installation is on a single story home with tile roof that is 28 years old, and we've not had any issues with the roof at all. That's a good point about doing any roofing work now before the system gets installed. I’m going to get a quote for a tile roof reline and reset, but it’s my understanding that a concrete tile roof should last 50 years.

Both of these quotes are from very professional companies who have been in business a very long time in San Diego. As such, I am not opposed to paying these guys a little bit more if only for the peace of mind that the install and warranty service of the system will be of the best quality.

I must admit that I am leaning towards the SMA/Kyocera system but it’s a bit under-powered and more expensive than the SolarEdge/LG system. I counter proposed the following system to the SMA/Kyocera installer in order to attempt to address these two issues:

SMA/Kyocera System Proposal #2
1. $21,323
2. 5.90kW DC
3. 22 – Kyocera KU270-6MCA
4. SMA America Sunny Boy 6.0-1SP-US-40 with Secure Power Supply

If using DC kW rating, then this bring the system cost down from $3.67/Watt to $3.59/Watt and give me a higher output system. Maybe this is still paying too much

[huge]

I personally would not go with that set up for that price. And I'm talking about your counter proposal. Those are poly panels and seems like there is no benefit over a system for closer to $3/watt that others have received. If you're set on only with going with one of those 2 installers, then I guess you don't have a choice. You have to go with their price. But I have a feeling of you get a cheaper quote from another company, such as stellar, then they will be more willing to give you even lower prices. Unless your installers are companies like sunrun. Those companies have such a high profit margin that they don't need to take a profit cut for a small system like yours.

[gatorbill]

Thanks "huge", I will have Stellar Solar come over and propose a system for me.

But one of my main concerns is about quality installation. Below are some photos of the inverter installations which one do you guys think are good and/or bad and why ?

Install #1
1)-semper_install.jpg

Install #2
2)-stellar_install.jpg

Install #3
3)-sample_install_1.jpg


Install #4
4)-sullivan_install.jpg

[sunnyguy]

Would prefer that #1 used metal conduit. If you want the inverter and disconnects to look particularly neat, get some chalk and work with the installers to draw it out on the wall.

[J.P.M.]

Thanks for the feedback so far.

Is the $3.25/Watt price for DC kW ? The quotes I have specify lower AC kW probably due by loses in the interconnects and the inverter ?

The installation is on a single story home with tile roof that is 28 years old, and we've not had any issues with the roof at all. That's a good point about doing any roofing work now before the system gets installed. I’m going to get a quote for a tile roof reline and reset, but it’s my understanding that a concrete tile roof should last 50 years.

Both of these quotes are from very professional companies who have been in business a very long time in San Diego. As such, I am not opposed to paying these guys a little bit more if only for the peace of mind that the install and warranty service of the system will be of the best quality.

I must admit that I am leaning towards the SMA/Kyocera system but it’s a bit under-powered and more expensive than the SolarEdge/LG system. I counter proposed the following system to the SMA/Kyocera installer in order to attempt to address these two issues:

SMA/Kyocera System Proposal #2
1. $21,323
2. 5.90kW DC
3. 22 – Kyocera KU270-6MCA
4. SMA America Sunny Boy 6.0-1SP-US-40 with Secure Power Supply

If using DC kW rating, then this bring the system cost down from $3.67/Watt to $3.59/Watt and give me a higher output system. Maybe this is still paying too much

The ~ $3.25/Watt price is in nameplate Watts: Using your #'s: $21,323/((22 panels)*270 Watts/panel)) = $3.59/Watt. I've seen $3.30/Watt around here. Some claim $3.25/Watt. Some vendors claim $3.00/Watt in ads but that's probably bait/switch and not the best quality. Terrible to pay too much - worse to pay too little. Think long term quality both in material and vendor. In the end, you will get what you pay for and what you negotiate - or less.

I forgot: Download and read "Solar Power Your Home for Dummies" - free on the net for a slightly dated version or about $25 or so for an updated hard copy version. Knowledge is power. read the book and get some of both.

Also, don't let the vendor talk you into replacing the tile under the array with comp. shingles. The only gain in that trick is with the contractor. It's building in a future problem with no benefit for the owner.

[huge]

How much would you say is too little?

[J.P.M.]

I personally would not go with that set up for that price. And I'm talking about your counter proposal. Those are poly panels and seems like there is no benefit over a system for closer to $3/watt that others have received. If you're set on only with going with one of those 2 installers, then I guess you don't have a choice. You have to go with their price. But I have a feeling of you get a cheaper quote from another company, such as stellar, then they will be more willing to give you even lower prices. Unless your installers are companies like sunrun. Those companies have such a high profit margin that they don't need to take a profit cut for a small system like yours.

Outfits like Sunrun, Vivant and SolarCity are, IMO garnered from dealing with them for the last 8 yrs. as the guy in my HOA who reviews all the solar improvements, the bottom feeders of solar vendors. I wouldn't let them on my property before I got my array. Nothing I've seen has improved in their behavior since.

[DaveDE2]

Gatorbill, do you have any significant shading? If not, IMO the clear choice is SMA/Kyocera so long as you can get a competitive price and quality installation. Keep it as simple as possible for maintenance/longevity concerns. If your jurisdiction is under NEC 2011 rules you will not need rapid shutdown either. If under NEC 2014, you will probably need a rapid shutdown box if you go the SMA route. It is roof mounted but only one $300 box as opposed to 22 $50 optimizers. The SMA 5.0 inverter should be plenty for a 5.9kW system. The panels will probably rarely produce 5kW but even if they do, clipping will only occur for a short time and will not impact energy harvesting in any significant way. A 6.0 would be fine too.

If you're interested in monitoring performance, SolarEdge has better granularity ie; you can see performance of each panel whereas SMA will only let you look at the performance of your two strings, which is fine with me but some people want to look at each panel. Solaredge also makes it easier to post performance on PvOutput but SMA can do it too with a $50 hardware add-on (Raspberry PI) and a little futzing with configuration.

[huge]

Dave, that's assuming no shade and same array position?

[gatorbill]

Dave, there's is absolutely no shading issues on this roof, there's a lot of roof area (I estimate at least 50 panels can fit up there), the area of the roof we're using is in the back of the house and it's down slope is facing south west. All the panels will be facing in the same direction.

Are the Power Optimizers used to get the most production out of an array whenever it is in partial shade ? If so, this array will never be in partial shade and so I see no need for them. Can a Solar Edge inverter be used without the Power Optimizers ?

[huge]

Solaredge can only be used with the optimizers. Technically, they can give you some increased production during periods of cloudiness or other obstructions, but over an annual period would not be so much. There's a thread about SMA vs solaredge if you want more details. Just do a search, or look a few pages down

[doboy01]

Hi,
Do you mind if I ask what company you're getting those prices from?? I've been getting quotes from many different companies out here in Orange County and they are ranging from $400-$4.30/W ...I've talked to Solar City, Sun Run, Sungevity, Home Performance Matters, and smaller outfits but nothing under $4/W

I've been estimating a 5.5-6KW system for my house ...so far Sungevity has the best prices and 20 year warranty with parts/labor

LG System with Optimizers
5.4KW DC system with 18 Panels for $24,168

Forgot their other brand
5.35KW DC system with 21 Panels for $22,516

I've been trying to get a quote under $4/W ...does anybody have any good suggestions on installers/company in Orange County? Sorry for hijacking this thread

Thanks

[tracksyde]

Try LA Solar Group

http://www.solarreviews.com/installers/la-solar-group-reviews/

(based on some advice I got here, its probably best to speak directly to Ara, the owner.. it makes a big difference)


I also had good luck with Advanced Improvements in Anaheim

[doboy01]

Thanks ..I just gave LA Solar Group and Advance a call for a quote ...really trying to get the price down a bit

[J.P.M.]

How much would you say is too little?

At the price were the old saying comes into your head that says if a deal seems too good to be true, it probably is (too good to be true).

Is $4.00/Watt too much ? Probably. Is $2.00/Watt before tax credit too little ? Probably. How about $3.00/Watt ? Maybe. That's where the knowledge is power part comes in. No hard/fast answers. Know what you're doing, buying and what's available. Negotiate tough but fair and remember you can squeeze a vendor pretty hard and you'll make it easier for the vendor to justify skimping on quality. That's a good way to not get value or quality. In the end, you'll get what you pay for or less. If less, it'll probably happen in ways you'll never know about until something goes wrong or maybe never.

[gatorbill]

What J.P.M. says is right on the money. I did not want to squeeze every penny out of my installer for exactly that reason. I was willing to pay a reasonable price that would allow the installer to still make money and install my system without the need to take shortcuts because I squeezed him too much. As such I wound up paying $3.45/watt to a very reputable vendor and I checked on all the details of how the equipment would be installed as well as the customer satisfaction history with the installer. The installer was great to work with and in return for my not trying to squeeze every penny out of the deal the installer provided an extended warranty on the inverter to be used in the system.