LG & Enphase vs Suniva & SolarEdge

[cferron]

I've been shopping around to have a grid-tied PV system installed on my house in Los Angeles, and wondering what folks think about these 2 proposals:

5,440 watts DC
17 LG LG320N1C-G4 320-watt 60-cell panels
17 Enphase S280 micro-interters
$19,679

5,695 watts DC
17 Suniva 335-watt 72-cell panels
SolarEdge 5k inverter with optimizers.
$19,679

My annual usage will be around 9,000 kWh. I'm expecting these systems to produce around 7,000 kWh per year.

Both proposals include 200-Amp panel upgrades. I got the Suniva/SolarEdge quote from one installer first, followed by the LG/Enphase proposal. The Suniva proposal price was originally higher, but the installer said they would match the price of the LG proposal, so now I'm left to decide which equipment to use for the same price.

The Suniva system is about 5% larger in terms of wattage, but the LG/Enphase installer felt that there would be higher production with Enphase equipment because of the shading issues on my roof. There are several protected Coast Live Oak trees around my house, and the shade from them limits the suitable area on my roof. Even the best areas will experience quite a bit of shading in the mornings and late afternoons. One company said the shade factor on my southwest-facing roof is 84%, and the northeast-facing roof is 75%. The LG/Enphase installer was up on the roof with me at around 8am. The sun had been up for a while, but most of the roof was still in shade except for a small patch of dappled sunlight where a couple of panels would be located. He said that with Enphase micro-inverters, those to panels would already be producing, but that with a SolarEdge system, the sun would still have to get higher above the trees to expose 5 or 6 panels to enough direct sunlight to meet the minimum threshold of the SolarEdge inverter, so the system wouldn't be producing anything yet.

He seemed to be suggesting that even though the LG panels are lower output than the Suniva panels, and would produce a little less at the peak of the day, the LG/Enphase system would make up for it with more production in the mornings and late afternoons.

Does that sound reasonable?

[ButchDeal]

The Suniva system is larger less efficient modules but should produce more because it has more kW.
The SolarEdge system is more efficient and has the same if not slightly better shade handling than enphase.

The benefit of the LG system is that it is slightly smaller with 60 cell modules and might be able to be placed in less shadow location.
of course an LG / SolarEdge would be even better

The micros don't have any performance advantage over the solaredge optimizers so the larger system should always produce more...

[cferron]

Thanks for the reply. I get the feeling that they would probably install LG/SolarEdge for the same price if I asked for it.

The Suniva/SolarEdge installer said that they looked into 60-cell panels, but didn't see any advantage the smaller panels would have in terms of placement. My roof is small, and the fire department requires 3-foot clearance on either side of the roof ridge when installing on both sides of the roof, so I think there's only room for one row of panels on each side of the roof, be they 60-cell or 72-cell.

[ButchDeal]

then it doesn't make a difference. you could possibly fit a few more modules if you did 60 cell landscape, two rows on each side but at higher cost. (possibly, have to measure closely)

[huge]

Butch is right. You can fit 2 rows of landscape 60 cell panels in the same height as a 72 cell up and down. By doing that, the production of the LG might catch up with the bigger suniva system, but it could take over 10-15 years for that to happen because of less degradation with LG.

[emartin00]

Thanks for the reply. I get the feeling that they would probably install LG/SolarEdge for the same price if I asked for it.

The Suniva/SolarEdge installer said that they looked into 60-cell panels, but didn't see any advantage the smaller panels would have in terms of placement. My roof is small, and the fire department requires 3-foot clearance on either side of the roof ridge when installing on both sides of the roof, so I think there's only room for one row of panels on each side of the roof, be they 60-cell or 72-cell.

You can ask, but the LG panels are probably a little bit more expensive than the Sunivas. LG's modules are higher efficiency, so they charge a premium. You can usually get a better price per what on 72 cell modules. I just bought a pallet of Hanwha's for $.56/watt.

[huge]

Maybe you could use a third company to beat both those proposals. There are a few companies people have used here with good results for cheaper. Just look a few posts up

[cferron]

Thanks for the replies.

I already have 11 system proposals from 6 different companies (SolarCity + 5 medium to small local Los Angeles companies). They range from $4.59 per watt for a SunPower system, to $3.15 per watt for the Suniva/SolarEdge system. I'm not counting the $2,000 200-Amp main panel upgrade that most companies have quoted.

The Suniva/Solaredge system was originally priced at $3.55 per watt, until I got the LG/Enphase quote and the other company agreed to price match. Looking through recent posts, I haven't found anyone in the Los Angeles area who's posted proposals less than $3.15 per watt. I might be skewing things by not including the main panel upgrade in my comparisons.

[cferron]

As for 72-cell vs 60 cell, I'm not sure if 60-cell panels in landscape orientation would help much. Here is the site plan so you can see how the 72-cell panels fit in between the plumbing vents and chimney.SitePlan.jpg

[huge]

Just out of curiosity, how much is the above company quoting you?

I just realized that the north have reverse tilt, which practically would make them Southwest facing modules. That looks pretty good.

[cferron]

The price is still being negotiated, so I don't have a number yet. The original quote from company A didn't have array 3, so it was a 5kW (355-watt x 15) system with Suniva panels for $20,296 (including 200A main panel upgrade and a 30-amp EVSE outlet). Then company B proposed a 5.4kW (320-watt x 17) system with LG panels for $19,679 (including 200A MPU, but not an EVSE outlet).

I showed the LG proposal to company A and they said they would match company B's price and equipment specs, if I preferred LG instead of Suniva. I then asked company A about adding 2 more Suniva to their original Suniva proposal to make a 5.7kW system and they sent the above site plan, but not a price. I'm expecting something a little less than $19,679, since it's the same number of panels as the LG system they said they'd match, but the Suniva panels are less expensive.

[huge]

Would you mind sharing who is company B?

[SunEagle]

Why would you mount 8 panels on the North side of your roof? Why not have most of them facing South West and the rest facing South East?

I reread your first post but I still don't understand how you get that much shade on the other parts of the roof to make the NE side a better location.

[cferron]

I know it looks crazy, but there's a good reason for it. The southeast end of the house is completely covered by overhanging limbs of mature coast live oak trees. Google Earth doesn't even know that the house is L-shaped, since that end of the house is completely obscured by the foliage. Even the 2 panels in array 3 probably won't get good sun until 11am or so, because of shade from a tall oak at the south corner of the house.

The rooms at that end of the house are 15 degrees cooler on hot days, so the shade does have it's benefits.

[SunEagle]

I understand now. Makes it hard to justify going with solar panel considering the amount of shade you get. I hope you get a good deal.

[cferron]

I'm being offered production guarantees that already take the shading factors into consideration. I suspect the companies are being conservative with their production estimates to reduce their risk of having to pay out. Using those numbers, the system should pay for itself in 8.5 years, assuming that electricity rates don't rise. If rates rise, or if the system produces more than the guarantee, then it will pay for itself sooner. My primary motivation is to reduce my carbon footprint, but even with the shading issues, it seems makes sense financially, especially since I just replaced one of my internal-combustion cars with a Nissan Leaf.

[ButchDeal]

As for 72-cell vs 60 cell, I'm not sure if 60-cell panels in landscape orientation would help much. Here is the site plan so you can see how the 72-cell panels fit in between the plumbing vents and chimney.[ATTACH=CONFIG]n324897[/ATTACH]

well lets see, Suniva 72 cell is 77.6" X 38.7" and LG 60 cell is 65.5" X 39"

so ignoring the vent stacks (which can be moved BTW)

you have a group of 7 Sunivas facing SW (not counting the two on the eastern side).
in that same space you could fit two rows of LG modules landscape of 4 each. so a total of 8 modules

On the NE side you could likely fit 9 total

so all told you could fit 19 LG320 modules in landscape on the same roof instead of 17 335w modules (6.08kw VS 5.7kw )
But thats just me...

Of course your could also fit at least one on the NW face too.

[cferron]

Excellent points. It seems like the area that would benefit most from landscape-mounted LG panels is array 1. It would allow me to put 2,560 watts in the least-shaded, best-oriented part of the roof instead of the 2,345 watts I would get using 7 Suniva panels. There's nothing stopping me from using mixed panels in different arrays with SolarEdge, right? I could replace array 1 with 8 LG 320's, and use 10 335-watt Sunivas in arrays 2 and 3 just as they are in the above site plan.

That would give me a system size of 5,910 watts using a total of 18 panels, and would only require moving 2 plumbing vents instead of 4, which I presume won't be free. I also assume that would simplify the racking for arrays 2 and 3 and reduce the number of roof penetrations compared to putting LG's in landscape orientation on the northeast roof.

[ButchDeal]

yes you can mix modules and optimizers (P400 for Suniva 72cell, and P320 for LG320w 60 cell) with no problems.
Yes the portrait racking would be cheaper than landscape (half the rails),
You likely could also add the one module to the NW either way as well.

[cferron]

Here's a satellite view to show the trees overhanging the southeast end of the house. Sunlight gets on the roof underneath them for a few hours in the late afternoon, but not enough to make it worth putting panels there googleSatelliteView.jpeg

[huge]

How tall are those trees? If they are not much higher than the roof, you should still be ok

[doboy01]

cferron, any updates on which system you choose? I just got a proposal for the same setup with higher KW DC and now deciding what panels to put up ...these two systems put me in the 90%+ of my KWH usage

System 1
6.17KW DC
18 Suniva OPT340-72-4-100 (72 cells) - 17.43% efficiency, 51lbs, higher degradation, 80% output after 25 years
Solar Edge 6k inverter and optimizers
$23,011 no panel upgrade needed

System 2
6.08 KW DC
19 LG 320N 1C-G4 (60 cells) - 19.5% efficiency, 35lbs, .6% degradation 83% output after 25 yrs
Enphase Micro S280 with Enphase AC Combiner Box (Envoy S) monitoring
$23,530 no panel upgrade needed

I'm also in your boat with leaning toward the Suniva system...my roof is really large and have no problem with the bigger and heavier panels ...I'm not sure if the 3% output after 25 years justify the extra cost ...I may ask the contractor to give me the Solar Edge 7k inverter incase I want to add more panels if I buy an EV car

It seems that most people here are also liking the Suniva option

[doboy01]

I just got a whole home company come to my house and I think I made out on a great deal...sign a contract the same day with them

17 Suniva 340W System with Enphase S280 and AC Combiner box ....5.78KW System for $17,595 ($3.03/Watt)

I only got the price because I'm also upgrading my 5 ton AC system, furnace and ducting with them too..my system is about 15 years old with Asbestos ducting ....because I'm upgrading my AC to a more efficient system, I lowered my Solar by 1 panel.

I think I did good after 2 months of researching and reading this Forum ...I'm also rolling this all to one bill so I get the 30% tax credit on the complete system

[huge]

Looks good to me. Good job. Just make sure you're on top of them and make sure they know what they're doing with the solar and that it's not one of their first Solar projects

[doboy01]

Actually it's a local company that does roofing, HVAC and solar that Tracksyde recommended some previous post that I asked ...good reviews on Yelp, solar review and etc..... But I'm going to have to check on their work to make sure I'm getting the stuff I asked for

[J.P.M.]

cferron, any updates on which system you choose? I just got a proposal for the same setup with higher KW DC and now deciding what panels to put up ...these two systems put me in the 90%+ of my KWH usage

System 1
6.17KW DC
18 Suniva OPT340-72-4-100 (72 cells) - 17.43% efficiency, 51lbs, higher degradation, 80% output after 25 years
Solar Edge 6k inverter and optimizers
$23,011 no panel upgrade needed

System 2
6.08 KW DC
19 LG 320N 1C-G4 (60 cells) - 19.5% efficiency, 35lbs, .6% degradation 83% output after 25 yrs
Enphase Micro S280 with Enphase AC Combiner Box (Envoy S) monitoring
$23,530 no panel upgrade needed

I'm also in your boat with leaning toward the Suniva system...my roof is really large and have no problem with the bigger and heavier panels ...I'm not sure if the 3% output after 25 years justify the extra cost ...I may ask the contractor to give me the Solar Edge 7k inverter incase I want to add more panels if I buy an EV car

It seems that most people here are also liking the Suniva option

I'd not worry about (area) "efficiency", degradation or claimed output at some future time. For equal size, orientation and duty, most any decent system will produce about the same annual output for as long as you'll own it. After decent equipment, spend more time determining the quality of the installer before a decision is made. A good install, professionally done by someone who's been around a long time is very important, the best warranty you can get and worth a slight, and fairly negotiated premium.

[doboy01]

Thanks..I've spent weeks on this forum, reading all these options ..I only went with installers who have been in business for over 10 years, have good ratings and recommendations on this forum