SolarEdge SE7600A-US vs SE7600A-USS

[SunEagle]

Even on a cloudy day, I'd hope my 6.6kW system could produce a few kilowatt hours. If the panels still work at 10%, that's at least 500 watts per hour put in the batteries for the night. Realistically, the fan only goes for half the day, so I only need a kW or two, battery alone will probably last two days. I'm thinking worst case scenario here though. I can always turn the temp down a little and bundle up, heater will only run a few hours per day then. I just want to keep the pipes from bursting and cell phones charged. If the batteries fill up, maybe slow charge an EV during the day at 1kW.

I hate maintaining gas engines, especially because most outages are just for a few hours, maybe a day. I like the idea of a system that just keeps vital circuits going, no maintenance. And filling up every day during a prolonged outage, from the sun is just icing on the cake. Not to mention, if a hurricane or tropical storm takes out power to the area for days, gas stations could be down, I could charge my car at home if the weather was at all good.

I guess it is a matter of what is important and what is possible to each person. IMO gasoline or propane engines are easy to run and maintain as well as provide a lot more energy then a battery system and are more reliable as well as being less costly then a solar/battery system.

But for others the opposite may be true. As for now a Tesla system is not a viable solution for a home energy storage system. Maybe in 5 years or maybe some other manufacturer but if you got the money to burn then go for it. It is your decision to make.

[nevetsyad]

Well, I'm also concerned about NetMetering. I'm afraid I'm going to get this system and in a year or two, be told that all of the power I generate during the day is going to be sold for $.02 per kWh. So I'd like at least the ability to capture some of it and use it in the evenings. Maybe have the batteries hold exporting at half, for emergency backup.

7K for two batteries, 1.5K for the extra inverter. Another grand or two for electrical work. Seems about twice as expensive as a generator. But I have a zero gas in my garage policy, too sick of changing oil, cleaning spark plugs, running engines in the middle of winter on my power tools (lost a pressure washer a few years back from it gumming up). Enjoying electric everything now days.

So, back to my original point...why the 20-40K add on for 12kWh of backup power, from both of the guys giving me the best solar only quotes? The batteries degrade if fully cycled every day, I understand, in 10 years I likely will have 50% capacity, but I hope to not be cycling them much. Is that the only reason they're discouraging people so badly?

[jflorey2]

Well, I'm also concerned about NetMetering. I'm afraid I'm going to get this system and in a year or two, be told that all of the power I generate during the day is going to be sold for $.02 per kWh. So I'd like at least the ability to capture some of it and use it in the evenings. Maybe have the batteries hold exporting at half, for emergency backup.

7K for two batteries, 1.5K for the extra inverter. Another grand or two for electrical work. Seems about twice as expensive as a generator. But I have a zero gas in my garage policy, too sick of changing oil, cleaning spark plugs, running engines in the middle of winter on my power tools (lost a pressure washer a few years back from it gumming up). Enjoying electric everything now days.

So, back to my original point...why the 20-40K add on for 12kWh of backup power, from both of the guys giving me the best solar only quotes? The batteries degrade if fully cycled every day, I understand, in 10 years I likely will have 50% capacity, but I hope to not be cycling them much. Is that the only reason they're discouraging people so badly?

You say you don't like maintenance - but batteries take a LOT of maintenance. Watering them. Cleaning them. Dealing with the acid holes in your clothing. Replacing them and getting the old ones back to the dealer for recycling/core charge. If you cycle them every day down to 50% you will be lucky to get 2 years (700 cycles) out of them - which means a new battery bank every two years.

As for money - cheapest (purchase price) batteries out there right now are T105's, which you can get for about $100 if you find them on sale. That's 660 watt-hours of USABLE power. So you'd need 18 batteries for 12kwhr usable. Since that's an odd number you'd probably have to live with 16 batteries. (8s2p.) So that's $1600 for the batteries alone. Add wiring, protection, battery box, ventilation, inverter and battery monitor and you'd be at about $8K for the system, doing all the labor yourself - so that price isn't out of the question. (plus $1600 every 2 years.)

[nevetsyad]

...lithium ion loves being between 20 and 80% SOC. The available power from the packs I'm looking at, like with my EVs, is hiding the bottom and top 10 or 20 percent, to increase battery live. There is no maintenance on the tesla power wall, like an EV also. Lithium ion is amazing. "The daily cycle 7 kWh battery uses nickel-manganese-cobalt chemistry^[9] and can be cycled 5,000 times before warranty expiration"

The Teslas are a bit pricier, but I believe cheaper in the long run, with a 10-15 year life. 8K for your system, how do they rationalize the 12K extra minimum on installation? That's a HUGE markup. One guy will come in and connect the charger and batteries, tie it in to my already set up EV/Emergency panel, and the job is done in less than a day. Tesla batteries are even simpler, they plug right in to the StorEdge inverter/charger.

[SunEagle]

You say you don't like maintenance - but batteries take a LOT of maintenance. Watering them. Cleaning them. Dealing with the acid holes in your clothing. Replacing them and getting the old ones back to the dealer for recycling/core charge. If you cycle them every day down to 50% you will be lucky to get 2 years (700 cycles) out of them - which means a new battery bank every two years.

As for money - cheapest (purchase price) batteries out there right now are T105's, which you can get for about $100 if you find them on sale. That's 660 watt-hours of USABLE power. So you'd need 18 batteries for 12kwhr usable. Since that's an odd number you'd probably have to live with 16 batteries. (8s2p.) So that's $1600 for the batteries alone. Add wiring, protection, battery box, ventilation, inverter and battery monitor and you'd be at about $8K for the system, doing all the labor yourself - so that price isn't out of the question. (plus $1600 every 2 years.)

He is talking about the Powerwall from Tesla which as far as I know don't really have any maintenance needed but also are not really available which is probably why no one wants to provide them for any realistic price. Can't get gold from lead easily.

[nevetsyad]

Yeah, they started in Australia because their power grid/costs are apparently horrific. But there's been a few hundred delivered to the US, just recently starting. They're ramping up production now, hopefully delivering next year. I'm fine with waiting, let me pay you now, or at least set me up so I can just plug them in when they arrive. But no, everyone is strangely against doing anything beyond the scope of slapping panels on the roof and running connections to a grid tied inverter.

Crazy timing, one of my quotes says that they're working with their lead engineer and the SolarEdge company to do a StorEdge install for me. Awesome. I have a suspicion that in about two years, my power company is going to switch from flat rate/net metering, to a painful peak/off peak system. I want to be ready for them in every way possible.

[SunEagle]

Yeah, they started in Australia because their power grid/costs are apparently horrific. But there's been a few hundred delivered to the US, just recently starting. They're ramping up production now, hopefully delivering next year. I'm fine with waiting, let me pay you now, or at least set me up so I can just plug them in when they arrive. But no, everyone is strangely against doing anything beyond the scope of slapping panels on the roof and running connections to a grid tied inverter.

Crazy timing, one of my quotes says that they're working with their lead engineer and the SolarEdge company to do a StorEdge install for me. Awesome. I have a suspicion that in about two years, my power company is going to switch from flat rate/net metering, to a painful peak/off peak system. I want to be ready for them in every way possible.

Always nice to be prepared but I am afraid the POCO is a moving target and will be out guessing the customer to stay one step ahead.

[huge]

I got a propane generator for $750 to run the house. How is that half of the battery system? It's more like 10%

[capowood]

Grid zero is totally different and does not necessarily mean backup capable.
The emergency panel is what makes it a backup capable system.
The auto transformer gives you 120v and is nothing like the SPS from SMA.
A StorEdge with powerwall battery, emergency panel, and transformer will give you uninterruptible power on several circuites wired in as well as 240v power to things well well pumps. It wil give this power at night as well as day time.
The SPS will give you a manual switch with single 120v not wired in configuration ( this outlet does not work during normal operation) and only during high solar production.

Btw, grid zero means you are not feeding into the grid. SolarEdge can do this without a powerwall, without transformer, and without emergency panel. All that is needed is an additional meter, though it has more capability if you add the battery.

ButchDeal - I have a question about the Storedge System for a Well Pump. I know the Storedge will run up to 5000 watts without the Powerwall - what size of well pump would this run without the battery? (Or would you need the battery, even during the daytime, to run a well pump?) The problem is that nobody can really GET the Powerwall right now...

[nevetsyad]

I got a propane generator for $750 to run the house. How is that half of the battery system? It's more like 10%

A propane generator would do it, as a $1,000 2 or 3kW ICE generator would also. I do like the propane idea over a gas one. But the furnace is hardwired and can't be simply plugged in to the generator. I would need an emergency panel and fridge/furnace/car and motorcycle slow charger moved over to it. Then I'd need to be able to plug the generator in to that panel via a special socket, or have it hard wired in to the panel - I don't think there's a way to have it done to code with a $1,000 generator. That's where the additional grand or two or three comes in.

[nevetsyad]

ButchDeal - I have a question about the Storedge System for a Well Pump. I know the Storedge will run up to 5000 watts without the Powerwall - what size of well pump would this run without the battery? (Or would you need the battery, even during the daytime, to run a well pump?) The problem is that nobody can really GET the Powerwall right now...

Yeah, but paying for it as part of a solar system with 30% federal rebates now and waiting for delivery is better than never having backup power.

My understanding is that it won't output any power once the grid goes down, unless you have a battery attached. There's a powerwall compatible system or two listed as comparable with the StorEdge if you really want to do that. You may consider the SMA Sunny Boy, it has what they call a Secure Power Supply. If the sun is shinning and the array can provide it, it will power a 15 amp outlet.

[jflorey2]

A propane generator would do it, as a $1,000 2 or 3kW ICE generator would also. I do like the propane idea over a gas one. But the furnace is hardwired and can't be simply plugged in to the generator. I would need an emergency panel and fridge/furnace/car and motorcycle slow charger moved over to it.

A 12 circuit transfer panel is about $600 from Generac and comes with the cables you need to transfer 12 circuits (including 240 volt circuits) over to the generator.

[nevetsyad]

A 12 circuit transfer panel is about $600 from Generac and comes with the cables you need to transfer 12 circuits (including 240 volt circuits) over to the generator.

How does a $750 generator with NEMA 5-15s out power that?

[nevetsyad]

I guess a 15 to 30 amp adapter could plug in to it's inlet. Add in 2 grand for install, maybe 3 with permits. Could be done for 5 grand I suppose.

I should add, I live just outside of DC and everything costs a LOT here. 50 amp circuit added to a sub panel and 20 feet of 6 gauge run along a wall to a 14-50 outlet is $860, best quote after four companies came out.

[capowood]

Yeah, but paying for it as part of a solar system with 30% federal rebates now and waiting for delivery is better than never having backup power.

My understanding is that it won't output any power once the grid goes down, unless you have a battery attached. There's a powerwall compatible system or two listed as comparable with the StorEdge if you really want to do that. You may consider the SMA Sunny Boy, it has what they call a Secure Power Supply. If the sun is shinning and the array can provide it, it will power a 15 amp outlet.

The Storedge has Islanding capabilities, even without the battery. Similar to the SPS, but it is hard-wired to a backup load instead of a plug. (I went to a Solaredge training 2 weeks ago and asked specifically about it) It does require the transformer and Meter, but it will operate stand-alone without the battery.
It can run roughly 5000 watts peak off of just the panels, with another 3300 watts with the powerwall. (Powerwall is virtually unavailable right now, which is why I ask)

[nevetsyad]

The LG batteries look like they're a bit pricier than Tesla, and equally hard to find. They're also about 50 volt, doesn't the Storaedge require high voltage batteries? 400 volts or so?

[capowood]

The spec sheet says right on it that AC Output during Backup Power is 5000 watts, and that DC input is 3300 watts. When I went to a Solaredge Training 2 weeks ago (Andrew Hague and Cameron Stewart taught the training), we spent an hour or so in the class talking about the Storedge and HD Wave inverters. They specified that it was 5000 watts without the battery, plus an additional 3300 with the battery.
The thing is, is that I haven't every actually installed one, and it sounds like you have ButchDeal. I figure experience is always better than a Spec Sheet.

[ButchDeal]

the answer I am getting is that there is no backup capability without the battery. The system will only provide 3.3kw from battery