SMA Sunny Boy 5.0 and 6.0 vs Solaredge for shaded areas

[DaveDE2]

There are no AC combiners and fuses in my system, as none are needed. My cost comparisons were indeed done with the two SMA 6.0's including two shutdown boxes vs one SE 11400 and all of the optimizers.

I don't understand why you think SE will start up sooner and run longer. I think you're splitting hairs there.

[DaveDE2]

Yes I have two inverters, but whether I have one or two, in either case the inverter(s) output needs to run into an AC disconnect. It cost no more money to run one or two there other than a few feet of wire.

My system is not multi faceted, only one face. Not withstanding, my understanding is that SE will not start up unless at least 8 of the the panels have sunlight. With SMA and 100v startup, there only needs to be 3-4 panels illuminated for startup.

[ButchDeal]

If you have two then you need an AC combiner with multiple fuses. If you have in then you just need a disconnect with no fuses. With solarEdge you need a minimum of 6 modules or a bunch of them partially alumina tend. The 8 is minimal recommended string length.

[DaveDE2]

No I don't. All I need is an AC disconnect that has two 2-pole breakers, no fuses, no more fuss than a single inverter would need.

So if Solar Edge needs a minimum of 6 modules to start up, tell me how that beats SMA which only needs 4.

[Eleceng1979]

SE = minimum 8 modules producing a minimum of 5-12VDC at each panel (optimizer start volts depends on model), this equals minimum inverter start volts of 40-96V. Nominal DC volts of 325-350 for rated power.
SMA = minimum start volts or 100VDC, minimum MPPT voltage of 100VDC, and rated power voltage of 270 DC

So SE will start earlier in the morning and turn off last, collecting additional power beyond the SMA
The SMA will make rated power of the inverter before the SE

The exam question is...do you want to collect low irrandiance power sooner/later during the day or hit full rated power sooner?

If someone wants to loan me 48 optimizers and a 10kw SE inverter I will gladly put the test on and provide data... which will probably conclude less than 2-4% annual improvement, which for my annual electric bill of $3000 would save me $60-120 annually

I feel the comparison between the two is trivial regarding power output (assuming a minimal shading scenario). The debate is purely about features at this point.

My personal opinion is... (warning, rant) SE hype's the shading factor issue...but solar 101 is to not put the panels in the shade. If you deliberately place any panel in the shade and expect gadgets to overcome physics, you are foolish. Somebody has invented a bluetooth/wifi enabled tampon. Just because it has microchips inside doesn't make it better or solve anything, it just provides data. Not every homeowner has a perfect roof with no shade, I get it...but the 2 story house with panels mounted on steep roofs, 4 or more mounting angles/directions, behind the trees, shaded by the neighbors house, nothing will help their install or power output, yet are sold by a salesperson pushing the latest tech with the largest margins... Solar installers/designers that knowingly ignore shade analysis reports to make a buck should be stripped of any credentials if any, and kicked square in the behind...(end rant)

My install had no less than 10 locations for every mount point on the roof, once the analysis was completed I only got 83% yield. 4 more locations picked on the ground, my yield was 94% available. Good design locations far exceed any micro/opti gains. In my case, why optimize a crap location when I can choose a better location?

The whole rapid shutdown thing is a joke, perpetrated by SE to push their tech. Why did SE have a seat at the NFPA table to author the 2014 NEC code regarding rapid shutdown and SMA was not there? At the time of authoring, prior to 2014 SE was no where near the player they are now.

Rapid shutdown is not lockout tagout. Ignorant people are placing faith in an electronic system to save lives, which at some point will fail and do harm. If proper fusing, disconnects, and wiring methods were practiced, no issue would arrise. If the industry would take a breath, standardize itself, this crap wouldn't happen. If every install had a disconnect within 10' of the array this is all a mute point, but the NEC contradicts itself regarding this. Instead of applying common sense, they allowed industry professionals to write their own products into the code to profit. Ok rant is over for the second time... I am a jerk and I approve this message.

[ButchDeal]

SE actual minimum is 6 , minimum recommended is 8.
SE had nothing to do with rapid shutdown, enphase did. Regardless of usefulness it is required in many ( and growing ) locations.

Point was about splitting modules on two small inverters with 4 strings or solarEdge with large inverter and 3 strings, early start faster ramp up. Look around at pvoutput.

[sensij]

Fuses and a combiner might be required by an ignorant AHJ, but a three string SolarEdge system would comply with the NEC without it. Arguments about whether an array will turn on with 4 or 6 panels are senseless... there is so little energy generated in the difference between the two, and really, the quality of irradiance and the exact way it hits the panels will matter quite a bit in determining how much power will be generated. Looking at a data sheet and declaring, 100 V, clearly superior, is either ignorance or stupidity.

Look at PVOutput for real world data, and see if you can tell a difference. Setting aside most of the half-truths and rants here, there are some factual differences between how the systems operate that create differentiation. Based on how the system is engineered, SolarEdge is *likely* to outproduce by a very small amount an otherwise identical string system, but that does not mean that it is necessarily the best system for everyone. Serviceability of optimizers, the risks of proprietary communication between the optimizers and inverters, the differences in data monitoring quantity and quality... these are better reasons to consider one over the other (in a shade free installation)

[DaveDE2]

Touche. That's what I meant about splitting hairs.

[huge]

Thanks for everyone's input.

After doing some reading, it seems as though there is a way to make the solaredge work when the grid is down. It requires some kind of a switch and generator, which also gives coverage at night. It will cost more than the SPS feature, but also will provide more power and also at night. If someone opts for this option, it might lessen one advantage of SMA vs solaredge. This is a new concept for me, but does my understanding sound right?

[Eleceng1979]

Huge, No pv grid tie system will work at night, you will simply run off of fossil fuels. If you have the battery addon "storedge" then this could be an option too. I dont know much, but i was under the impression grid tie inverter with sun + generators = trouble/generator damage... yes you can install a transfer switch and toggle your house between pv and generator to have backup power, but not both at the same time. Maybe there is a way, i am just ignorant to SE technology.

[ButchDeal]

Bimodal inverters work at night off of batteries. Such as those from OutBack, and the solaredge with the Storedge upgrade (including a powerwall).

[ButchDeal]

Thanks for everyone's input.

After doing some reading, it seems as though there is a way to make the solaredge work when the grid is down. It requires some kind of a switch and generator, which also gives coverage at night. It will cost more than the SPS feature, but also will provide more power and also at night. If someone opts for this option, it might lessen one advantage of SMA vs solaredge. This is a new concept for me, but does my understanding sound right?

To get the SolarEdge inverter to work at night you have to have an SE7600 StorEdge version which is bimodal, also a Powerwall, and an autotransformer. The generator is optional

The other option (as you stated) is to get a transfer switch and generator. The inverter will not work at night but the generator can.

Both of these will provide much more power, and features than the SMA SPS.

[SunEagle]

To get the SolarEdge inverter to work at night you have to have an SE7600 StorEdge version which is bimodal, also a Powerwall, and an autotransformer. The generator is optional

The other option (as you stated) is to get a transfer switch and generator. The inverter will not work at night but the generator can.

Both of these will provide much more power, and features than the SMA SPS.

You pretty much summed it up. With today's technology a standard grid tie pv inverter will not work without sunlight or if the grid goes down period.

[Eleceng1979]

Except sma sps feature. Adequate sun + grid down = 2000w per inverter. I can carry this 2000w output from 9 am to 7 pm with solid sun due to my large strings on each inverter. I have 4000w available for 10 hours. Yes it will go off/on if the clouds cover briefly. All with no additional purchases or batteries...but have nothing at night

[SunEagle]

If you noticed I said if without sunlight a grid tie inverter will not work. Even the SMA with the SPA feature. It NEEDS sunlight.

[Eleceng1979]

You said "or if the grid goes down period." - I am correcting this statement as the SMA can provide limited power while the grid is down. I am not debating sunlight being required. I am not splitting hairs, just stating facts. In my case, 2 x 2kw of 120V power for 10 hours with no grid + adequate sun is nothing to sneeze at and provides more power than a tesla battery while the sun is up, for no additional cost as it is built in. The OP is debating backup generators for his SE system in this thread and another, hence my comments of limited power being available while the grid is down and the sun is up, which contradicts your statement. He could accomplish the same thing by spending $$$ on a tesla battery to duplicate this feature and as an added bonus to have power at night. All for a cheap $350 per kwh for the battery alone. Meanwhile I can keep the beer cold during the day and ride through the night... for no additional system cost.

[dex]

Definitely splitting hairs here. If there's any chance of shading spend the extra bucks on a SolarEdge.

Enphase is currently developing their battery and have launched it in Australia. If you guys are really do it yourselfers you can create your own tesla battery with labtop batteries

[silversaver]

If your array is constantly under partial shade from 10am to 2pm prime hours, the Solaredge will be the pick regardless of 3 MPPTs on the SMA.

The SPS of 2000W.... how often does the grid goes down?

They both are great product choose the one that you need.

[Eleceng1979]

The SE will always make more power, agreed. I lose power about 10-15 times per year. Worst time in 6 years was a major wind storm, without power for 14 days, other was an ice storm for 8 days. My family made it through on 2 deep cycle batteries a 500w inverter and a 2 kw gas generator. Life was rough, but we made it fine with cold food and hot showers. Yes, you can rewire a 240v water heater for 120v at 1/4 of the power... 210 gallons of fishtank and not a single dead fish. I live in a 3 stoplight town in central ohio, at the tail end of a line. I am #2 from the end of the line...needless to say i am the first out and last back on. I pay $0.142 per kwh all in poco cost including all taxes and bs...batteries are simply not economical. For my situation having 4kw during the day would be a blessing compared to the previous 500w inverter at night and a 2 kw gas genny during the day.

[silversaver]

Depends on the area, but I do believe the power generator is a much better pick. Speaking of the generator, mine 10 or 14kW generator were sitting there collecting dust..... reminders me couple years ago the big fire in SD area knock off the grid for few days during hot Summer with high 90s during night time. Enjoy watching neighbors stop by my house with ACs and lights on while eating ice cream

[ButchDeal]

Definitely splitting hairs here. If there's any chance of shading spend the extra bucks on a SolarEdge.

Enphase is currently developing their battery and have launched it in Australia.

He is looking for power when the grid goes down so the Enphase solution is the last thing OP would want.

[jflorey2]

After doing some reading, it seems as though there is a way to make the solaredge work when the grid is down. It requires some kind of a switch and generator, which also gives coverage at night. It will cost more than the SPS feature, but also will provide more power and also at night. If someone opts for this option, it might lessen one advantage of SMA vs solaredge. This is a new concept for me, but does my understanding sound right?

Basically you have several choices when it comes to backup power:

1) SPS. No extra cost or maintenance; power when the sun is out.
2) Battery based system (of any flavor.) This will give you some backup at night depending on decisions on battery bank sizing. High cost both in purchase price and maintenance.
3) Generator. Cheap and relatively easy. Some maintenance requirements but much less than for a battery based system.

[ButchDeal]

#2 is backup power and automated
#3 can be automated and thus backup power
#1 can not be automated in any way and is clearly not reliable. About the most that can be said about it is that "it does give you an option to potentially get some limited power from your array when the grid is down, if the weather is nice"

[huge]

This might be a better question for another thread, but since there's all this great discussion here, I'm going to ask it here but keep the specifics on the other thread.

So I'm still a little confused. If the grid goes down in the middle of the day, is there a way to make solaredge give power without a battery? Such as connecting a generator to give it the power it needs to turn it on?

[ButchDeal]

Simple and complete answer is NO!.
you need a battery. a generator is going to do nothing for a grid tied inverter. You would have power from the generator though.

[jflorey2]

So I'm still a little confused. If the grid goes down in the middle of the day, is there a way to make solaredge give power without a battery? Such as connecting a generator to give it the power it needs to turn it on?

No. If you want to use your solar system for backup and you do NOT want to use batteries, your only option currently is the SMA inverter.

[huge]

Silversaver mentioned above shade between 10am to 2pm would point more towards solaredge. In my situation specifically, I have minimal to no shade between this time period, and it would even extend longer in the afternoon if I trim my trees.

So my question now is how much more production will the solaredge produce? For my set up, the solaredge would cost about 5% more. If the solaredge would produce 5% more electricity or more, it would be the better choice. If the difference in production is less than 5%, then I would rather go with the simplicity of sunny boy. But there's also another problem. I'm looking at a system between 7-8kw and sunny boy 6.0 is not big enough for my comfort

[huge]

What if I get a solaredge system, and put a transfer switch on the grid side of the electric panel and hook a generator up to it? If power goes down, can I just trick the solaredge by switching the power to the generator and fooling it into thinking the grid is on?

[ButchDeal]

No. Discussed here several times.

[SunEagle]

A generator will not provide the same electrical profile as the grid due to a number of factors. As of now there aren't any grid tie inverters (micro or string) that can be fooled into running at 100% output by something other than the grid. Only SMA has built a unit that can provide a minimal amount (~1500watts) of power without grid connection but still needs full sunlight.

[huge]

Which one will be easier to add a couple of panels to it? For example, add a couple of different panels in the back yard just for a little boost down the line

[ButchDeal]

SolarEdge hands down. Strings are hard to mess with and modules change constantly, keeping the string consistent with new modules is hard. SolarEdge as long as you keep string length in range (number of modules) you can mix modules pretty much all you want.