SMA Sunny Boy 5.0 and 6.0 vs Solaredge for shaded areas

[huge]

There has been lots of talk about SMA vs solaredge vs microinverters such as enphase, but I coudn't find much discussion about the new SMA 5.0 and 6.0 systems. They now have 3 strings and are supposed to manage shading better.

Is there anyone with experience or thoughts about the new SMA inverters? Is the better shading management just an advertisement tool by the company?

The installed cost of SMA still seems lower than solaredge with optimizers and I'm trying to figure out if the extra cost (let's say about 10%) for the solaredge is worth it, or would it be better spent with an SMA system and just add 2 more panels which would roughly cost the same 10% more.

I have some shading issues. The east clears up by around 9-10am but the west has a lot more shading issues that starts around 2-3pm and I have limited space on the roof. Each side (East, West, South) can only fit about 10 panels.

Any thoughts?

[sunnyguy]

Well 3 mppt with a voltage range starting at 100v is definitely an improvement for a string inverter. Individual mppt could probably do a bit better. Sma 6.0 is $2250 and solar edge se6000 w/ 27 optimizers is around $2800. After tax credit that's ≤$400 difference.

[sensij]

If you live somewhere that follows nec 2014, the rapid shutdown requirement probably reduces the cost difference between them.

With each face on it's own mppt, and no strings in parallel, Solaredge may outperform a little bit, but probably not much in the grand scheme of things. This is true for the other string inverters as well, but adding the third mppt is what they done differently that helps improve designs.

[sunnyguy]

Mppt range down to 100v is potentially more important change from previous string inverters if half of your array is shaded and only producing 120v. But that is a good point about rapid shutdown. Sma's solution is what $250 per string?

[huge]

Great points. Is Los Angeles on NEC 2014?

[ButchDeal]

I have some shading issues. The east clears up by around 9-10am but the west has a lot more shading issues that starts around 2-3pm and I have limited space on the roof. Each side (East, West, South) can only fit about 10 panels.

With shading like this SolarEdge will outperform, handily. With the Rapid shutdown costs SolarEdge should be cheaper, at worst the same costs.

[Eleceng1979]

With shading like this SolarEdge will outperform, handily. With the Rapid shutdown costs SolarEdge should be cheaper, at worst the same costs.

What he said. I own 2 of the sma 6.0's. They can do 3 strings as mentioned but are geared towards roofs with different angles, there is a hybrid 4 string wiring setup using paralleled strings in 3 mppt's inputs too. The solar edge will win hands down with heavy shading, but ask yourself...is the complexity factor worth it? If NEC 2014 = no (sma does have a rapid shutdown kit for extra $), and you don't want to stare at panel level monitoring, the sma is a logical, simple choice... my system was equal cost between sma and se, ground mount with partial shading until 845-9am, in ohio. I chose sma due to 2000 watts of secure power when the grid is down x 2 inverters, 4000 watts total on tap. When your higher output SE system beats my Sma system by 3-5% annually, I will be keeping my beer cold and surfing this forum when the power is out and sun is up...

[solarix]

right on....

[inetdog]

If you live somewhere that follows nec 2014, the rapid shutdown requirement probably reduces the cost difference between them.

With each face on it's own mppt, and no strings in parallel, Solaredge may outperform a little bit, but probably not much in the grand scheme of things. This is true for the other string inverters as well, but adding the third mppt is what they done differently that helps improve designs.

The really big difference (during partial shading periods only) is, IMHO, that bypass diode action could drop the overall string voltage below the operating point of the string inverter, leaving zero AC output while the optimizers could continue to deliver a string output voltage that will satisfy the Solar Edge inverter.

[huge]

Seems like JPM is going to be out for another week. Here is the information I have so far:

Pros of SMA 6.0 vs SE6000A:
1. Works better in setups without shade (based on real world observations by solarix of older inverter vs solaredge)
2. lower cost for areas without NEC 2014 rapid shutdown requirement (based on prices from Renvu, assuming 20 panels, will come out to around $500 less and lower cost of installation, let's say total $750 cheaper) The 6.0 actually looks like it is cheaper than the previous SMA model 6000TL
3. potentially more reliable (less parts that can brake)
4. SPS feature may have some limited usefulness for power outages (better to have it than not to)
5. doesn't need proprietary optimizer

Pros of Solaredge
1. Per panel monitoring (cool feature for some, useful tool to determine failure points for others)
2. possibly better cost for areas with NEC 2014 requirement
3. higher output for areas with shading (3-10% more?)
4. more potential set up options, not limited to 5.0 and 6.0 models, can get 7600 model for just a couple hundred more


Please feel free to correct any of the above and I can eventually add it to the first post for people to find faster

Questions I don't know answers to:
1. Can panels be mixed and matched with either system? I know with enphase they can be, but it is a little more controversial. Eventually something is bound to get messed up, and in 10 years you will likely not find the same replacement to the panels you currently have
2. Is one system preferable to the other with electric cars?

[ButchDeal]

SolarEdge has cheaper monitoring than SMA, ( of course also better monitoring)
Much simpler string configuration and more options with solarEdge
Our experience is that solarEdge much closer costs without rapid shutdown.
Also have grid zero capabilities with addition of meter and configuration change
And option to upgrade to power wall full backup ( for se7600).

Of course SMA can do backup but not with power wall and more expensively with another inverter.

Questions
1. SMA you can have different modules on different MPPT inputs but must be same on each input. SolarEdge, you can mix and match modules with none matching if you like.
2. Shouldn't make a difference here.

[huge]

Butch, thank you for your expertise. This grid zero thing seems like a great option. Would you happen to know how to convert a regular solaredge install into a grid zero capable install? How much would it cost?

[sensij]

Seems like JPM is going to be out for another week. Here is the information I have so far:

Pros of SMA 6.0 vs SE6000A:
1. Works better in setups without shade (based on real world observations by solarix of older inverter vs solaredge)

I'd take this one with a huge grain of salt. A single anecdotal report of "works better", when the comparison was with early generation products no longer sold, when even the better results reported are within reasonable measurement error, seems like an awful stretch. If you want anecdotal evidence... take a look at PVOutput, Team San Diego, and see how many SMA systems show up as top performers, relative to SolarEdge systems. On the principals of operation, in a typical shade free installation they should perform about the same. There are reasons to think SolarEdge could outperform in the long run, but the differences are small enough that it would take a really controlled study to know for sure.

[Eleceng1979]

Both products have their merits and cons as we have seen and spoke about. I am a nerd and care about every detail of system performance but not enough for panel level. IMHO points of failure, spare parts, and maintenance of the system to ensure you make it to 25 years to run the panel warranty out is my biggest issue with micros/optimizers. I am biased as I am an EE and a maintenance manager. How many owners of micros/opti's have a spare? I don't need spare anything besides a MC4 unlocking tool, for $7. With a 10 year warranty plus extensions I will never pay for an inverter in the next 25 years. The downside is I have to pay attention to string voltages to ensure I don't have an issue... either system is acceptable and will reduce the poco bill which is what it's all about...

[sunnyguy]

SolarEdge has cheaper monitoring than SMA, ( of course also better monitoring)

Is that true with the new sma inverters with built in WiFi? Isn't sunny portal free and pvoutput?

[ButchDeal]

Your right, if you get the new SMA with built in wifi, then they are similar in cost ( free) for set up but solarEdge is pretty simple for pvoutput .

[Eleceng1979]

Is that true with the new sma inverters with built in WiFi? Isn't sunny portal free and pvoutput?

SMA 5.0/6.0-us have built in wifi, usb and ethernet hard line. As a bonus there are 2 ethernet ports in each that act as a switch so you can daisy chain ethernet on multiple inverters. There are external wifi antennas available to boost it too. Yes, sunny portal is free. Yes you can home brew what ever method to get to pv output for free too or donate to pv output for better details.

The inverters have 2 expansion ports for sensor modules (s0 meter input, temp, solar irrandiance, etc...) but are not released yet...with no eta. All of which will be viewable in sunny portal. Think of it as the "new" sunny sensor box.

[DaveDE2]

huge:
I have a 13kW system with two SMA 6.0's. They cost $1910 each. I also have two SMA shutdown boxes at $292ea. Each box can handle four strings with two independent MMPT channels. I'm employing two boxes because i want to operate four independent strings (due to slight morning and afternoon shading issues), two on each inverter. If you have different pointing roof faces and need to operate 3 strings and MPPTs per inverter, inverter efficiency will be somewhat less because you'll be running less power per string, less modules per string, less voltage output, thus less inverter efficiency (see efficiency vs string voltage on the SMA 6.0 data sheet).

In my case, SMA has reduced cost to the tune of ~$500 or so for components over SE and has the added advantage of greatly reduced roof-top electronics. It has the disadvange of only string monitoring, not per-panel.

If you want to get the skinny on shading issues and how it may impact your system, I strongly recommend downloading the NREL SAM program and playing around with it. It will tell you how much you are losing due to shade and you can surmise how SE optimizers may or may not benefit you.

[ButchDeal]

Guest:
I have a 13kW system with two SMA 6.0's. They cost $1910 each. I also have two SMA shutdown boxes at $292ea.

In my case, SMA has reduced cost to the tune of ~$500 or so for components over SE. It has the disadvange of only string monitoring, not per-panel.

you could handle that array with a single SE11400 (12kw AC output) saving cost of AC combiner & fuses, two SMA DC rapid shutdown kits, electrician time, cost of second inverter, fourth string down run cable,...
All you mention about 3 strings on SMA would apply in having single inverter able to start up more quickly and stay running longer...