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Pricing may depend on what equipment they plan on using. Until their plant in So. Buffalo churns out production, they'll probably continue to quote (or leave it a mystery) whatever equipment they can get the best deal on, and then substitute whatever's available when install gets near. FWIW, that was one of my 11 beefs with them.
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You have to - it is the only way to get offers that are more comparable.Comment
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If so, why don't all other vendors need to ? I know of no others that do that, although I've no doubt some do and many would like to.
Rsilvers: I'm having some trouble sometimes understanding which posts your responses are referring to. It would help me (maybe others ?) with some reference. Thanx in advance for any consideration in that regard.Comment
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Absolutely. If I were starting over, I would print up a sheet with things like "relocate vents as needed, conduit inside attic whenever the backside of the roof is accessible, racking shall be black in color, junction boxes shall be inside attic, inverters shall be in basement."
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Note to potential solar users reading this: Decide what you want, put it all in writing and make that part of the negotiation and/or a part of the contract before you sign it. Do not rely on verbal assurances. Also know that after contract thought of adders can be expensive for both the vendor and you.Comment
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Just to give an example of something an installer may do unless the home-owner kicks back the plans:
This is down the street from me. Rather than relocate a plumbing vent, they put panels around it, somewhat lowering the resale value of the house to people who are already not into solar and so extra sensitive to how it looks.
Nice install proves that solar can look good, even on an old building:
Last edited by rsilvers; 05-15-2016, 02:18 PM.Comment
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Two thoughts on the installs shown in the photos:
1.) On the first photo, while I appreciate the impact of aesthetics and personal opinion on prices, I'd speculate that the resale value wouldn't be affected much more than the cost of moving the vent. I'd have some concerns about how the vent in its current location might affect performance, but that may be a minor issue given the panel distances from the vent and likely shadows.
2.) On the second photo, I'd like to know how difficult it will be to service panels away from the edges of that array. -
2.) On the second photo, I'd like to know how difficult it will be to service panels away from the edges of that array.
Although it looks great, It would be difficult to service, to say the very least. Even a simple washing on that roof would be more costly due to safety factors. If it installed with micros and there is a failure, very costly to replace even one that is buried in the middle rows or on the edge. The first picture may not look better to certain aesthetically challenged people, but would be less costly to perform any type of service.
Also for relocating plumbing vents, out here the required method is cutting the vent pipe inside of the attic and routing it to another location. Although that is not a problem for a licensed solar contractor, an electrical contractor is supposed to have this work done by a plumber which brings another separate company into the install and adds costs. And leaves a hole to patch which they are not licensed for either.Last edited by ncs55; 05-15-2016, 04:36 PM.
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I didn't mean the first house should not have solar. I just said that it would look better if they put in the missing panels. Moving the vent would probably be free to the homeowner for the asking given how high MA install prices are there is plenty of room in the price for those kinds of things.Comment
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rsilvers, Ok, but you originally posted; somewhat lowering the resale value of the house to people who are already not into solar and so extra sensitive to how it looks.
If they are sensitive to the looks, then they probably would not be interested in buying that house, or the value that the solar system has to offer. My point is, that aesthetics can get in the way of the solar being cost effective in the long run and should never trump serviceability as J.P.M. pointed out. You have to factor both into the equation of the installation. You have to meet the balance of both. Photovoltaics is simply not maintenance free as most are being told. And should be performed by licensed, trained and qualified people. Commercial systems for example have a dedicated service team either in house or hired out to keep the system running at peak. Residential systems are no different other than size and need the same maintenance although it is less than commercial.
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You have to remove a path of panels to get to an inner panel.Comment
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Solar City put this up across the street from me in about four hours. It looks good except for the conduit going over the ridge.
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A quick splash of the right color of paint and the conduit would be invisible. Running conduit through the roof looks slick but has a few disadvantages. The biggest disadvantage is putting combiners or disconnect boxes in a location that is not easily serviceable or readily available for a rapid shutdown in case of emergency. If you have any reason or have any emergency that requires the PV to be disconnected, are you going to crawl up in your attic and shut it off ? Also locating these types of boxes in the attic have the potential of causing fires on the inside of the home. The older Pulse combiners are famous for meltdowns. Also note that when some installers use wire nuts on the DC side there is more than potential for failure and fire is a huge risk. Have you ever seen what actually happens when a wire nut on the DC side when or after it explodes inside of a plastic J Box? Is it really worth the risk and hassle to have a box unseen? We put disconnects on the roof attached right next to the array regardless of what the customer actually requests initially. That is where we draw the line and they know this right up front and before we do the bid. Personally, I need to be able to sleep at night and do not want to be in any way responsible for any potential of fire inside of an attic.Last edited by ncs55; 05-15-2016, 04:26 PM.
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True - painting that short piece of conduit black would have been no big deal and looked ok. I will let my installer do that in a spot or two.
As for fire risks, for sure there is a safe way to do it, but I am not an electrician. I read you have to use metal conduit and not Romex. It is about 400 volts. My installer also mentioned that he has to run metal conduit indoors and not plastic.
It is much easier to shut something off in my attic than on my roof. There will be another shutoff on the ground level where the power goes into the house.Comment
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Yes metal conduit is mandatory for DC applications in solar, and you can use flexible conduit as long as it is metallic (FMC), and not over 6 feet in length. Romex can be used on the AC side when going through walls and is common practice. As far as plastic, I am referring to the J boxes. They can be plastic with metal conduit attached to them and still be code compliant. It is much better to use a metal box, the cost difference is minimal to the individual consumer. But can be a huge savings for the installer over many jobs. As far as attic shutoffs it is difficult for a technician when testing strings and someone has to be at the residence to let them in, plus the extra time it will take the tech to perform his duties. Techs charge by the hour. I'm not saying it is wrong, it is just easier when something goes south to have external boxes and once they are color matched they pretty much disappear.Comment
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This talk about plumbing vents has me thinking of my own situation. I have a 2 array installation with one an azimuth of 195 and the other more eastern facing at an azimuth of 105. I do lose one panel on the southern facing array due to a plumbing vent and I'm wondering if I should ask my installers to move it. I just didn't realize it was possible before and therefore never thought to bring it up.
The only thing to keep in mind is that aesthetics is not at all an issue on the southern array as the vent and the area around it can't be seen from the ground at all. As a matter of fact only a small part of the entire southern array can be seen at all and that's only from a few houses away in the exact spot. The eastern facing array is definitely visible from the front of my house and that's where I care about aesthetics more.
Here's two pages from the plans that were submitted to my town and POCO. What are your thoughts on the vent situation?Comment
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The vent appears to be pretty close to the ridge and it looks like it could be moved to the other side of the ridge from the plans shown. Is the intent to add one more module? Or does that vent create shading on one of the modules?. Is it a plumbing vent, dryer vent, or heat vent from a gas appliance? The plumbing vents are pretty simple and in expensive, the other two types are a little more costly but usually not a problem. I would want to determine the cost of moving the vent vs the performance gain of the system. Sometimes it is simply not worth it.
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Yes, you have to move it, both for looks and to get an extra coveted southern panel.Comment
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I believe it's a plumbing vent. It's right above a bathroom and the vent on the other side of the ridge is a different bathroom. I'll ask about possibly moving the vent and putting in another panel there. I wonder what it does to the eastern facing array from an aesthetics standpoint to take a panel away from there. Also, I already got town and POCO approval. I don't know how problematic it is to change the plans from the approved ones.Comment
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