Feedback on Proposals in Orange County, CA

[J.P.M.]

SolarEdge has the capacity to have local temp sensors and pyronomiters. We generally do not put them in on our residential installs though and this example I attached does not have one.
They pull Temperature, Wind speed, and humidity from zip code meterological data. It is very helpful to me to determine what might be causing issues as we monitor systems in Minnesota over the winter....
like this one where the performance tanked at the snow event on 2/2/16 but temperature hasn't gotten much above freezing till today.

here is the link for their environmental sensors that are supported on the monitoring site as well:
http://www.solaredge.com/files/pdfs/..._datasheet.pdf

Found the manual and it mentions:

"Weather data is gathered from a weather station near the installation site so might not reflect exact weather on the site itself."

http://www.solaredge.com/files/pdfs/...user-guide.pdf

Thank you. I'm generally interested in panel/array temps in my quest for the holy grail or more methodology on array fouling, and wondered if/what others are doing.

Stay warm/Regards,

[DaveDE2]

We are talking about a $1000 difference that gives you the freedom to expand or reduce your system with no limit. getting an EV, new child ,expansion room, etc? try to fit that to a string system


if you have a failure with the grid inverter you are off. if same occurs with micros, then you just have 1 panel off.......then add the uninstal/install/repair costs and the $1000 gap will get shorter and shorter, then add the cable cost that is more expensive on string vs micros

Micros installs are cleaner, less cables needed(im not counting this cost to the differnece), easier to install,no big boxes on your house insides or perimeter

Definitely im on the micro inverters side (no brand here) they are the future and remember tecnology tends to reduce size of things no matter what.....the big boxes had their great time here, but they are getting older.......

Micros look like the worst of all worlds to me. First of all they are more expensive than strings or optimizers. Secondly, you have ALL of your system electronics on the roof, thermal cycling through hot and cold, day in and day out, many parts bound to fail sooner than if they were in a stable temp environment. When they do, what a costly PITA to get on the roof and replace them again and again and again....

[J.P.M.]

Micros look like the worst of all worlds to me. First of all they are more expensive than strings or optimizers. Secondly, you have ALL of your system electronics on the roof, thermal cycling through hot and cold, day in and day out, many parts bound to fail sooner than if they were in a stable temp environment. When they do, what a costly PITA to get on the roof and replace them again and again and again....

And that pretty much sums up why a lot of (but by no means all) knowledgeable residential PV owners do not have micros.

[socal580]

Isn't an optimizer up on the roof (of which there is one for each panel) just as susceptible to failure as a microinverter? It's subject to the same environmental conditions, and is just as much a PITA to replace, right?

Is there a good way to find an installer in SoCal that uses the SolarEdge system? all three contractors I have contacted so far use Enphase microinverters.

[inetdog]

Isn't an optimizer up on the roof (of which there is one for each panel) just as susceptible to failure as a microinverter? It's subject to the same environmental conditions, and is just as much a PITA to replace, right?

Is there a good way to find an installer in SoCal that uses the SolarEdge system? all three contractors I have contacted so far use Enphase microinverters.

FWIW the optimizer does not need the high voltage capacitors that a microinverter does.

And does not have any high voltage AC present.

[DaveDE2]

Isn't an optimizer up on the roof (of which there is one for each panel) just as susceptible to failure as a microinverter? It's subject to the same environmental conditions, and is just as much a PITA to replace, right?

Is there a good way to find an installer in SoCal that uses the SolarEdge system? all three contractors I have contacted so far use Enphase microinverters.

I'm no expert but it sounds like your roof situation is a good candidate for either micro inverter's or optimizers. Being in Orange County, electronics thermal cycling on the roof won't be as bad as in many places such as it would be here in Colorado. Optimizers have far fewer components than micro inverter's and are probably significantly more reliable. Nobody really knows yet since the technology is so new.

[mike6116]

Ill just say this last thing about all that fear of "electronic thermal cycling" duh, does your Aircon suffers from that??, does your telco power meeter suffers? does your car?? thats crap for me, there is no reason to say they will last less for being at outside, there are a lot of electronic devices running outside and with no problems....

[sensij]

Ill just say this last thing about all that fear of "electronic thermal cycling" duh, does your Aircon suffers from that??, does your telco power meeter suffers? does your car?? thats crap for me, there is no reason to say they will last less for being at outside, there are a lot of electronic devices running outside and with no problems....

How many cars and A/C's last for 10 or 20 years with zero maintenance? That is what we ask of our PV systems, and why string inverters are likely to be more reliable than micros. For those who don't mind climbing on the roof and disassembling the array to "maintain" their system over time, micros can be a fine choice.

Comparing to the power meter is consistent with this point... the fewer components involved, the more likely it is to last. A power meter is much less complicated than an inverter.

[inetdog]

Ill just say this last thing about all that fear of "electronic thermal cycling" duh, does your Aircon suffers from that??, does your telco power meeter suffers? does your car?? thats crap for me, there is no reason to say they will last less for being at outside, there are a lot of electronic devices running outside and with no problems....

And none of the above mentioned electronic things are likely to contain large electrolytic capacitors, among other things.
Believe me the specifications and quality of electronic components under the hood of your car are designed to tolerate far higher temperature extremes than a microinverter. Is this a sign of bad design in the case of the micro? Probably not, since cost is a factor. But it does not hurt to treat it more gently.

[DaveDE2]

I just read an Enphase white paper where they are claiming 300 years MTBF for their inverters after any infant mortality failures. Impressive to say the least. Infant mortalities sometimes occur with electronics and if they do, presumably parts and labor would be covered that early on. As far as the "wear out" period of 300 years goes, if you have 27 panels, statistically speaking, you're likely to have a failure at about 300/27 = 11 years. Not bad. It could happen sooner or later than that. I'm not sure I believe the 300 year number for that complex of a device because it's derived from component manufacturer specifications under best case scenarios of perfectly produced components with no variation in yield or assembly, but I hope it's correct. I wish Enphase and SolarEdge would publish the actual failure rates (as surely they must know from all of that cloud data) but I'll bet they never will. By the way, solar panel MTBFs are purportedly on the order of 600 years (yeah right). I agree with Sensij though that if you don't mind doing some rooftop maintenance now in then it's probably not a huge concern.

[MikeInRialto]

I wonder if anybody knows how many electronic components are in the engine bay of a car - not too many failures going on there, especially in cars with turbocharged engines (very high heat temps), so time will tell with micros. We'll see at the 11-12 year mark when central inverters are all but guaranteed to fail.

[DaveDE2]

My money's on car electronics over micro inverters. Most car electronics are only turned on for about 400 hours per year. PV electronics are on for more like 4000.

[mike6116]

And none of the above mentioned electronic things are likely to contain large electrolytic capacitors, among other things.
Believe me the specifications and quality of electronic components under the hood of your car are designed to tolerate far higher temperature extremes than a microinverter. Is this a sign of bad design in the case of the micro? Probably not, since cost is a factor. But it does not hurt to treat it more gently.

Microinverters cant do "large" on anything because of the miniaturization of their components however they use them, here some specs from enphase

https://enphase.com/sites/default/files/EnphaseElectrolyticCapacitorLife.pdf

[sensij]

Microinverters cant do "large" on anything because of the miniaturization of their components however they use them, here some specs from enphase

https://enphase.com/sites/default/files/EnphaseElectrolyticCapacitorLife.pdf

It is cool that you cited a study from 2008, justifying the design of the M190... which has subsequently suffered unacceptably high failure rates and in some cases even recalled or de-rated in firmware.

[mike6116]

It is cool that you cited a study from 2008, justifying the design of the M190... which has subsequently suffered unacceptably high failure rates and in some cases even recalled or de-rated in firmware.

1.Cant find where in the doc is the M190 listed/commented
2.Do you have any comments where the capacitors are directly related to the M190´s failures
3.Does enphase the only company in the whole world that had problems with their products?
4. Does enphase did not honor they warranty on those failed units?

Im with you about M190 had a lot of failure, now we are talking about new generations of inverters, but you need to change the page, M215 & M250 are great products so on the S gen

Remember the path for R&D is full of rocks some times they are smaller, some times they are bigger but without innovation there will be no technology.

Do you think the early string inverters where not full of failures, then new models come out, and problems where solved with future generations of inverters