Solar Panel Options

[BradS7535]

Hello all, new here and was hoping to get some insight/suggestions as to which solar company/panels/system is the best deal. I'll try to provide as much info as possible, but if you need to know anything else, feel free to ask.

Looking to offset my electric bill AT LEAST 100% (based on current usage). We would probably use more A/C in the summer and use our electric spa more once we get solar so I expect our yearly usage to go up slightly. Here is a summary of the past 3 years of usage:

2013 = 5320 kWH
2014 = 6016 kWH
2015 = 7247 kWH

Mid 2014 we had our first child, and within the past 6 months or so she's started enjoying watching Disney movies so we've had our 65" plasma on a lot more lately, as well as running heat/AC due to pregnant wife. I expect our usage to increase in the next year or so. We've gotten the following quotes and was hoping to get some suggestions from everyone here as to what seems like the best way to go. I'm more interested in the purchase option (with loan). We are getting our roof re-done in a month so keeping/maintaining our roof warranty is somewhat important (wouldn't want to void the roof warranty right after putting it on).

Sunrun (thru Costco):
5.3 kW system
QCell 265W panels
SolarEdge 5000W Inverter
System Cost = $20,250
Costco will give us 10% back from equipment cost (about $600), and I believe since I'm an executive member I'll get another 2% back on my costco card (about $400).

Sungevity
5.25 kW system
Trina solar panels
Not sure on the inverter (possibly from some company called ABB)
System Cost = $20,274

Sungevity
5.4 kW system
LG NeON 2 Black 300W panels
Possibly same inverter
System Cost = $21,879

SunPower (through local installer)
5.23 kW system
SunPower SP-327 panels
SunnyBoy 5000TL inverter
System Cost = $23,381

LG (through local installer)
5.23 kW system
LG panels
SunnyBoy inverter
System Cost = $20,000

I've tried to do as much research as possible, and know that the solar panels from best to "worst" would be SunPower, LG, QCell then Trina. But my problem is with the small price differences, is getting "the best" worth the extra money? Chime in with your suggestions. Thanks!

[DanKegel]

Standard advice here is something like:
- solar panels are a commodity, $ per watt is what matters for them (unless you're really short on space)
- the outfit installing your panels makes more difference than the panels themselves these days. Are other folks nearby happy with them?
- have you calculated your payback time? Anything much longer than 7 years might not be worth it.

I bought SolarEdge myself, but the SunnyBoy might appeal to you if you want to be able to use your panels when the grid goes down (it's not automatic, but you could e.g. move a fridge to a special socket on the inverter to use when grid is down, if it's one of the models with that feature)

[cebury]

I'll let the other folks answer your question about the "best" being worth the money. It wasn't for me.

I checked a few years back and Costco didn't honor the % cash back for solar (they had a max 400$ credit for solar at the time, like your $600 one). You should double check if that's important in your cost factoring.

You should post your location and what kind of roof/setup you're installing on as the prices seem high without that consideration.

[Willaby]

Not sure where you're located, but I have a 4.5kw system that produces about 7.5kwh/annual which is very close to your current (2015) usage. With TOU EV2 (for an electric vehicle) rates I generate $2-300 extra credit each year that I can allocate to an additional EV, more AC, and also offset panel degradation over time. In August, after our turn on, we immediately enjoyed the AC more. Extra nice not paying the egregious 50c kwh peak rates with SDGE.

At ~$3.80+ your quotes seem a little high although I don't know your full situation. Tile roof? Panel upgrade? Other factors? Many are getting quoted $3.50/kwh or less with reputable installers. I went with LG + SolarEdge. SunPower always has a premium that I didn't want to pay and with SolarEdge I wanted the per-panel monitoring plus I have a little shading in the AM. Hope this helps a little.

[J.P.M.]

1.) Location - zip ?
2.) What does PVWatts estimate for long term, average output ? If So. CA, a 5 kW system will get you ~ 8,000 - 9,000 kWh/yr. if decently oriented with little shade.
3.) Except for the expected Sunpower premium, those $/Watt prices are all pretty close. That usually a telltale sign that a customer has shared their first, or any other pricing with competing vendors. Not a sin, but think about it, and think like a vendor: No vendor needs to go lower, except maybe by $0.01 or so, so they don't. Sharing prices may not be the best battle plan for getting the best price ? Besides, vendors tend to lose any respect they have for you. That may work against your goal of quality. If you're in So. CA, or many other places, ~ $3.50/Watt or less is the going rate. At this time, more than that leaves money on the table. Negotiating a fair price usually gets a better price and, more importantly, quality, than does a dutch auction.
4.) I'd pay more attention to the quality of the vendor than low 1st cost. Think long term. I'd stick with local, established electrical contractors with a known name and reputation who've been around for a long time.
5.) Get educated. Knowledge is power.

6.) I'd get a couple more quotes, keep the prices to myself and sharpen my negotiating skills.

In the end, Not my house/life/money and NOMB.

Take what you want of the above. Scrap the rest.

[BradS7535]

Thanks for the input so far! A little more information:

Composite Shingle roof, normal slope. Located in SoCal (Ventura County). I wasn't to sure about the cost/kW, but considering I've gotten quotes from 3-4 companies and they are all in the ballpark seems to be the going rates right now. Got a quote from SolarCity for $28k so they were out on price, and their sales rep was totally unacceptable so we aren't considering them.

As far as $/kW that doesn't seem like the most accurate way to compare systems. Please correct me if I am wrong but let me explain my thought process:

2 systems that are rated for the same output (lets say 5.2 kW at 8400 kWH/year).
System 1 is more expensive, but is "top of the line" panel with slower degradation and possibly a longer life. 25 year warranty (parts/labor)
System 2 is cheaper but degrades faster. 20 year warranty (parts/labor).

Year 1 both system 1 and system 2 will produce approximately the same amount of power and I am paying $X/year for the system
Year 5+ system 2 has degraded more than system 1 so now I am paying more per kWH produced per year since my payment has stayed the same, but now my production has dropped more on system 2 (another possibility is that in the future System 2 is no longer producing enough for my needs, so the system is covering less than 100% of my total usage, while System 1 is still covering 100% or more).

Additionally, some companies say that the efficiency/degradation isn't really important because of their "production guarantee". But if System 2 only guarantees to 87% the first 10 years (and say theoretically at year 10 it hits exactly 87%) that company would still be compliant and wouldn't be required to fix anything. But if System 1 guarantees up to 90% the first 10 years then wouldn't System 1 be a better value longer term due to the increased production vs System 2?

Sorry if I got a little confusing between System 1 and 2, but I guess the point is how do I evaluate FUTURE value? Right now everyone is talking about $/kW installed, but that $/kW will change as the years go on (since the monthly solar payment will be fixed).

[BradS7535]

Thanks J.P.M, all very good points.

Zip is 91360

The sequence of bids was Sunrun 1st ($20,250), then SolarCity ($28K), Sungevity (~$20k) and then SunPower. Sungevity gave me their quote and then at the end asked if I was in the ballpark (and said if I had lower quotes they would try to match). I told them they were in the ballpark, but never told them beforehand what other quotes I got, so every quote I've received has been without the companies knowledge of other competing bids.

I get a $1500 discount for SunPower through my company (taken into the price I posted above). And Sungevity gave me a $500 discount. I will try to negotiate harder.

[cebury]

While it's admirable to factor long term comparatives into your purchase, IMO you are giving far too much weight to a 3% performance difference some 10+ years from now. Degradation differences (past year 1) are so minor it takes decades long scales to become more important than other decision factors.

[Redokrad]

Thanks J.P.M, all very good points.

Zip is 91360

The sequence of bids was Sunrun 1st ($20,250), then SolarCity ($28K), Sungevity (~$20k) and then SunPower. Sungevity gave me their quote and then at the end asked if I was in the ballpark (and said if I had lower quotes they would try to match). I told them they were in the ballpark, but never told them beforehand what other quotes I got, so every quote I've received has been without the companies knowledge of other competing bids.

I get a $1500 discount for SunPower through my company (taken into the price I posted above). And Sungevity gave me a $500 discount. I will try to negotiate harder.

I am also in the process of getting a solar and I already got different bids and I'm telling you, all your quotes are quite high. Is that offer cash or financing?

[BradS7535]

I am also in the process of getting a solar and I already got different bids and I'm telling you, all your quotes are quite high. Is that offer cash or financing?

Im looking at a loan. What companies have you gotten quotes with? What area are you in?

[Redokrad]

Im looking at a loan. What companies have you gotten quotes with? What area are you in?

I'm in Inland Empire. The LA Solar is closer to your area and does not want to move the needle after the $3.38/watt on Solar World with SE inverter/optimizers and $3.58/watt on LG with SE inverter/optimizers, both loan offers although I am getting a bigger system.

[MikeInRialto]

I'm in the Inland Empire and got $3.3/watt for a 4.2 Kw size system using microinverters. Price would have been the same for me even if I chose LG panels. At the time LG didn't have the all black w/black backing, so i went with the solarworld.

[wildfins]

Definitely need to check with LA Solar Group and SolarMax, both having good positive feedback on www.solarreviews.com.

I recently got a (cash price before 30% tax credit) quote from LA Solar Group (SoCal) on a 9.4kW DC system using SE7600 inverter + P400 optimizer
- SunEdison 325W 72-cell (large) panels (17% efficiency / 12-yr mfg. warr. on parts) @ $2.95/W
- LG 315W 60-cell panels (19% eff. / 12-yr mfg. warr. on parts) @ $3.40/W
- SunPower 327W 96-cell panels (21% eff. / 25-yr mfg. warr. parts+labor) @ $4.xx/W

Notes: LA Solar Group actually offers 20-yr warranty on the entire system, regardless of the mfg. warranty.
Also, do expect that smaller systems would cost higher price / watt.
J.P.M feedback from previous posts suggested that the SP panels are worth the consideration if price difference (after 30% tax credit) is less than 5% vs. other (good) panels such as LG, SolarWorld, etc...

[J.P.M.]

Definitely need to check with LA Solar Group and SolarMax, both having good positive feedback on www.solarreviews.com.

I recently got a (cash price before 30% tax credit) quote from LA Solar Group (SoCal) on a 9.4kW DC system using SE7600 inverter + P400 optimizer
- SunEdison 325W 72-cell (large) panels (17% efficiency / 12-yr mfg. warr. on parts) @ $2.95/W
- LG 315W 60-cell panels (19% eff. / 12-yr mfg. warr. on parts) @ $3.40/W
- SunPower 327W 96-cell panels (21% eff. / 25-yr mfg. warr. parts+labor) @ $4.xx/W

Notes: LA Solar Group actually offers 20-yr warranty on the entire system, regardless of the mfg. warranty.
Also, do expect that smaller systems would cost higher price / watt.
J.P.M feedback from previous posts suggested that the SP panels are worth the consideration if price difference (after 30% tax credit) is less than 5% vs. other (good) panels such as LG, SolarWorld, etc...

FWIW, I'm still holding on to my opinion that S.P. MAY be worth about a 5% or so up front premium above the most cost effective bid, and probably no more.
However, that most cost effective bid may not necessarily be the lowest 1st cost bid. Buying on low 1st cost alone is false economy and the logic of a fool..

[FFE]

Looking to offset my electric bill AT LEAST 100% (based on current usage). We would probably use more A/C in the summer and use our electric spa more once we get solar so I expect our yearly usage to go up slightly. Here is a summary of the past 3 years of usage:

Have you run PV watts? Depending on where you are in Ventura Co. and direction the panels would face, a 5.3 kW DC system seems like a large system based on past usage assuming you have owned the spa in all of 2015.

Ignore everything below if you are trying to build a system to offset your carbon footprint, but you put "bill" not "kWh."

Some things to keep in mind: If you offset your usage 100% you will end up paying more to SCE and pay more for your system than if you switch to TOU-A and build a system that will cover about 75% of your usage. Yes, the rules could change in the future, but I think the best future proofing plan is to build smaller. I plan to use about 12,000 kWh per year (two BEV cars make the situation different for me) and I put in a 5.3kW WSW facing DC system in that loses about 30% annual to shade. So, similar to what a south facing 4kW DC system in full sun makes. Seems like all of the companies are trying to oversize to cover 100% of your kWh instead of recommending a smaller system on a TOU plan.