Self install... To attempt, or not to attempt?

[inetdog]

There are very deep "stud finders" available for less than $1000, but still too expensive for your needs unless you are in the installation business, but there may be a way to rent one.
There are less expensive ones which home in on a transmitting target that you have placed inside the attic. (right next to a rafter, for example.) The outside unit then specifically finds that target.

If both of those options are out of the question, then drilling a small hole or driving a screw will give you positive confirmation that you are in the right place.

[peakbagger]

We need some more details. For a DIY, microinverters are somewhat easier to designa system than a grid inverter especially if you need to meet the new requirements for a remote panel disconnect. The calculations for a grid inverter aren't that difficult but you do get to delve in the National Electrical Code to size the cabling. Micorinverters are somewhat plug and play although you still need to read the manuals to make sure that you don't exceed certain limits. If you have potential shading issues microinverters are the way to go but if you don't there is some increase in system cost. Of course since you are DIY, the savings will considerably offset the extra cost. The one minor downside is if you really want power when the grid is out, you miss out on the SMA secure power supply option on their grid tie inverters but the realty is buy a generator and a gas can and you are far better off.

Racking is pretty simple in most areas, the racking companies have on line automated programs that will size the rack once you fill in some local code specific questions. Once you know what they are talk to your AHJ and ask him what these values are. You also need to ask him if your existing roof has to be reviewed by a PE. Most areas don't but the AHJs have the right. No way around a PE stamp if he does.

As for finding rafters, if you have attic access, find a steel coathanger, cut it off with a pair of dikes and drill up through the roof next to a rafter. Preferably do this where you plant to put a flashed in roof mount or where you plan to install the roof penetration. Assuming your rafters are on equal spacing, just measure over from where the coat hanger sticks up through the roof and add 3/4 of inch and you should be set. If you are using flashed type roof mounts even if you miss and extra hole in the roof isn't a major issue, just put some silicone in it prior to installing the mount.

Another AHJ question is if the area requires firefighter access on the roof. This means leaving clear lanes up the sides of the roof and along the ridge for fire purposes. This can eat up your available roof space and can make the system look a bit uglier but the rules are the rules.

There are a few tricks on conduit runs through the interior of the building. If you run outside not an issue but if run inside, you need to run metal conduit from where it goes in to where it ties into a panel (note there are exceptions but running metal is the conservative approach).

As discussed, the tie to the panel can be the biggest PITA if the systems rated amperage exceeds the 120% rule. If you need a panel upgrade its probably time to call the electrician and decide if a line side tap is more economical.

If you aren't used to roofs you need to get up on a roof and see how comfortable you are. Some folks just aren't "wired" for it. Use a harness and an anchor point unless the roof pitch is very shallow. I set a run of roof brackets at the edge of the roof and then lay in planks to work off of and as a last resort if I start sliding.

I have DIYed three systems, one pole mount, a wall mount and a roof mount. I did them all solo with no outside help. Rigging the panels up from the ground to a second story roof was the biggest PITA solo. It just requires a lot of thinking and some fancy rigging. My systems were small (2 KW) but the theory is the same. Another issue with roof installations is timing the install to avoid the heat of the day is very important. A roof is going to be lot hotter than the ground and if you do it on a sunny day, its easy ot get dehydrated and in general "cooked". The tough thing with dehydration is it sneaks up on you and the first thing that goes is your thinking. Its best to break the project into stages and if possible pick cloudy days or only work a few hours at a time. A lot of folks like to do a weekend build all in one shot and that is not really a great idea as with help standing around it easy to take shortcuts plus beer and roof work is really bad combination.

My theory on these installs is to spend a bit more on good quality stuff rather than going cheap. The savings I get by doing the install far exceeds the small increase for quality gear. By the way, if you need a few tools buy them or borrow them in advance. A project like this is always a justification to buy some tools

[Amy@altE]

Do not try to do the design yourself, or piecemeal the system together from different sources like Amazon or eBay. Go to a reputable online solar store, you can find many here at our forum host's page, https://www.solarreviews.com/solar-distributors/ They will put together a design that includes most of what is needed for a code compliant system, right down to the labels the AHJ will be looking for.

[whocares?]

If you have the know how, do it!!!

I am someone that has flipped many houses. First of all, it will be required to get a building permit to install the panels. This is a good thing, because if something happens to the panels or your property because of a defect, it will be easy for your insurance company to reimburse you for the damages. By getting the permit, and having the install pass inspection, it is a great ease on your mind as well. I know the permits will cost you some money, but in the scheme of things it could be the best insurance you could get. Listen, the inspectors will just make sure that the panels are installed to code, and they may
end up saving you money in the long run. Really building inspectors do not care if you have never done the job or not, they run into this kind of thing all of the time. On the plus end, if you have never done a job like this, and you impress the inspector, it could come out to a big plus for you. I remember the first home I rewired, and yes the inspector was dubious to say the least, but at the same time, he gave me suggestions that saved me time and money. Code inspectors are people too you know. Like was mentioned earlier in the post, I would advise you to discuss with different wholesalers' of solar panels, tell them what you want, and have them design the system for you the way you want it. I would not settle for just one, even if another company charges a little more, it may come out in your favor at the end. After you get the design the way you want it, take it to the codes people. They will look over it, and issue the building permit. When the job is completed and passed, you will feel safer, just because someone with some experience has looked it over. The first time I pulled a building permit in the codes office the inspectors gave me the once-over. When you go to the codes office to get the permit, ask the engineers questions and for suggestions as well. I do know the first time, they will tell you, what do you think? And they will advise you to contact a company, and not ask them the questions, but social engineering works, use it. (Some real advice - make sure your ground screws have green heads - buy a green paint marker).

[whocares?]

Metal detector and rebar

Awesome info, guys and girls! Lots of very useful tips. Some of the best answers I've gotten on any forum on any topic up until now!

You guys have convinced me that this is likely worth doing myself, unless I run across an inexpensive and extremely reputable installer.

Now on to diving deeper into the research.

Many of your tips are super useful in getting me started on topics to research, and thankfully so far I fit within the parameters you guys have brought up. I have a 200A panel, and probably can't fit more than 6-7kW effectively, so I'll start with the 40W breaker.

Any really good websites or videos with detailed diy installs? I've found a few that are only decent (will get to your video soon, Amy!).

As far as locating the rafters... The simplest method I've found is tapping with a mallet, but haven't tried it yet. Any better methods? It seems trying to measure from the edges would make it easier to miss the mark, but might work in a pinch. My stud finder has a "deep" mode, but probably not nearly enough to go through the roof.

How many $/W should I budget for wiring, junction boxes, hardware on top of the main parts of the "kit" (panels, inverter, racking)? Any permit prices and misc costs?

Feel free to keep the tips coming. There's gold in this thread so far

Thanks!

Steve

Get a cheap metal detector and a single piece of rebar or EMT. Attach it to the side of the rafter in the attic, and find it with the metal detector. If you desire you could attach the metal to both sides of the rafter to make sure you know where the center is. Get a cheap pin-pointer metal detector, you can buy them on Ebay for 30 bucks or less. That should work for you.

[foo1bar]

(Some real advice - make sure your ground screws have green heads - buy a green paint marker).

I wouldn't use a green paint marker on ground screws - use appropriate grounding.

On the racks on the roof, use the grounding attachment recommended by the racking manufacturer and/or the panel instructions.
For me with Ironridge with grounding mid-clamps, I needed a ground connector (from ironridge) to connect the ground wire to every other rail, and grounding midclamps to connect the modules to the rails (and to bond the rails to each other via the module)
For most of my panels that was sufficient.

Where I couldn't use grounding midclamps, I had to get a ground lug that the panel manuf. recommended and attach it to the panel.

The ground screws in the junction boxes were standard green green screws from HD or Lowes - they're something like $2 for a baggie of them. So you might as well buy a baggie of them and be using the correct thing. And the ground block in the inverter and in the breaker panel won't need green paint.

[foo1bar]

Do not try to do the design yourself, or piecemeal the system together from different sources like Amazon or eBay. Go to a reputable online solar store, you can find many here at our forum host's page, https://www.solarreviews.com/solar-distributors/ They will put together a design that includes most of what is needed for a code compliant system, right down to the labels the AHJ will be looking for.

This may look like it's self-serving advice (no offense Amy)

But IMO it is sound advice.
If you have 1 source for all the stuff that you don't get from HD/Lowes, you have 1 place to complain to.
They can't point the finger at each other saying "Well our equipment is fine - it's the other vendor's fault".
I shopped a couple of stores - priced out the whole kit, and purchased everything but the labels from one store. I bought the labels separately from a store that just does labels (I wasn't concerned about a warranty / functionality issue with labels or interactions between the labels and other equipment.)

And I have no qualms with using one vendor's prices to get a better deal at another.
"Hey Jan - I see XYZ has their inverter for $200 less. Can you price match that and bring my total bill down to $14300 instead of $14500? Or knock $200 off the shipping?"
When you're buying >$10K of stuff, you can negotiate a little, and probably they'll give you a little... They're willing to take a $200 hit to their profit margin if it means $10K+ in revenue, because it probably still means a nice profit even after giving you a small discount.

[whocares?]

I wouldn't use a green paint marker on ground screws - use appropriate grounding.

On the racks on the roof, use the grounding attachment recommended by the racking manufacturer and/or the panel instructions.
For me with Ironridge with grounding mid-clamps, I needed a ground connector (from ironridge) to connect the ground wire to every other rail, and grounding midclamps to connect the modules to the rails (and to bond the rails to each other via the module)
For most of my panels that was sufficient.

Where I couldn't use grounding midclamps, I had to get a ground lug that the panel manuf. recommended and attach it to the panel.

The ground screws in the junction boxes were standard green green screws from HD or Lowes - they're something like $2 for a baggie of them. So you might as well buy a baggie of them and be using the correct thing. And the ground block in the inverter and in the breaker panel won't need green paint.

I only included that because I had an inspector to hit me for not having a green ground screw. Matter of fact when the house got passed, I gave the electrical inspector a green paint marker - Just said in fun.

[steel_3d]

Awesome tips, once again. Feel free to keep them coming!

1. Can someone give me an estimated $/W or $ for the miscellaneous costs I should expect over and above the basic panel/inverter/racking, (ie: accessories, permits, etc). I'm most likely building a ~7kW roof mounted Enphase system in Los Angeles.

2. Any good a-to-z instruction videos or websites/forum posts?

Thanks!

[Solar_SD]

Great information here. Thanks to all for sharing their knowledge.

[igerstein]

Another thing to think about as you compare installation costs is your own time. What do you value your own time at? If you include the time cost of your own sweat investment the difference in pricing between doing it yourself and paying for it probably becomes very small.

[Samsolar]

Another thing to think about as you compare installation costs is your own time. What do you value your own time at? If you include the time cost of your own sweat investment the difference in pricing between doing it yourself and paying for it probably becomes very small.

I looked at it a bit differently:

In most if not all (US) areas, people are paying in excess of $1/watt for turn key installation. If we just call it $1/watt, then I saved $8400 by installing my own system, or just $5880 after the tax credit. Using the lower number, that still works out to getting paid $73.50/hr for the install which at least to me is a very attractive hourly rate!

[SunEagle]

I looked at it a bit differently:

In most if not all (US) areas, people are paying in excess of $1/watt for turn key installation. If we just call it $1/watt, then I saved $8400 by installing my own system, or just $5880 after the tax credit. Using the lower number, that still works out to getting paid $73.50/hr for the install which at least to me is a very attractive hourly rate!

Did you consider the cost of tools, insurance, permitting, etc. to perform the installation that would come out of that $8400 you are saving?

You also need to add up all of your "man-hours" for the job to determine what a true hourly rate would be.

I am not saying people shouldn't look into a self install. I am saying that most people do not do all the math on what it costs a person to perform a self install and what they think they will be saving.

Remember that any equipment or installation issues down the line would become "your problem" and not the Contractor's. That cost can add up.

[foo1bar]

Did you consider the cost of tools, insurance, permitting, etc. to perform the installation that would come out of that $8400 you are saving?

What kind of additional insurance do you think a DIY'er is going to need?

Permitting for me was $300.
Tools were a few hundred as well. I don't have the numbers in front of me at the moment so can't say exactly how much. But now I have those tools for other uses.
BTW I think $1/W is low - but I spent quite a few hours on my install so my $/hr is probably lower than $75. But $/hr isn't relevant for me. Doing the install was basically a hobby activity for me.

[SunEagle]

What kind of additional insurance do you think a DIY'er is going to need?

Permitting for me was $300.
Tools were a few hundred as well. I don't have the numbers in front of me at the moment so can't say exactly how much. But now I have those tools for other uses.
BTW I think $1/W is low - but I spent quite a few hours on my install so my $/hr is probably lower than $75. But $/hr isn't relevant for me. Doing the install was basically a hobby activity for me.

Sounds like you were able to cash in on the DIY savings. I believe it can be worthwhile for some people to at least investigate doing a solar project DIY

I brought up the insurance because there are some localities that require "new construction" to have liability insurance on all workers. Seems like an extra expense to me but could be a local requirement.

And if you are using other people to help with the installation it might be a smart purchase to make sure that if anyone gets hurt, your homeowners insurance doesn't take a hit yet everyone working is covered for medical injuries. Since the policy would be short term the costs are too bad but could be an added cost most people don't think about.