A few things I have learned as I get ready to sign my contract for Solar

[ButchDeal]

The only reason I bring this up is because I happen to have a panel with a main breaker in the middle and while we are hoping the city doesn't force us to get a new panel, my installer mentioned that it is possible they may make me get a new one. Stupid thing is that I just remodeled my house 2 years ago and my panel is only 2 years old!!! I REALLY hope the city doesn't make me get a new one!

It depends on how much you are feeding in etc. with center feed you can't use the 120% rule. You may have other options like line side tap.

[snowblind40]

Wow. This is so great!
Have you decide on which installer to go with yet?
If you don't mind, please PM the contact information.
I have a couple quotes and still comparing, but I have a hard time deciding if it's a similar quotes, should I go with a bigger company who only do solar or a smaller company who do other stuffs and well.
I know they both have pros and cons. What do you think?

One other consideration that I want to add when considering an installer. I will add it in the original post as well.

Decide on the type of inverter you want in your system first. Then when you talk to installers, ask them what they prefer to install and install the most of. Then only choose the installer that NORMALLY and ROUTINELY places the inverter that YOU prefer. If they say, "We have installed Enphase in nearly all our projects but since you prefer SolarEdge, we are happy to install that one for you." Find another company that installs mostly SolarEdge! You want the expert at the thing they are putting on your house!

I basically chose my vendor by asking for references, good price point, great warranty, has many already done and active projects in my area and a sales person that was easy to talk to. I also chose one who uses the equipment I preferred regularly.

[skipro3]

The only reason I bring this up is because I happen to have a panel with a main breaker in the middle and while we are hoping the city doesn't force us to get a new panel, my installer mentioned that it is possible they may make me get a new one. Stupid thing is that I just remodeled my house 2 years ago and my panel is only 2 years old!!! I REALLY hope the city doesn't make me get a new one!

Well, I can take photos and prove that you can indeed feed solar into a center fed main breaker. The bottom line is that the buss can not be allowed to draw too much power from the main and from the solar at the same time that the buss bar melts before the solar or main breaker trips.
Buss bars are rated higher than the main breaker so that the breaker trips before the buss burns up. Adding solar increases the total potential of power to the buss. By resizing the main breaker, you can protect the buss getting over current.

[snowblind40]

Wow, great in depth post, nice work. Just had to de-link the links to direct competitors of the owners, cheers
P.S who did you end up going with (apologies if you already said and I missed it) its cool now to mention your installer as long as its a link to their www.solarreviews.com page, cheers.

Weird that you guys consider a government .gov page a competitor. But hey, your site, your rules!

So here are all the companies I didn't go with in no particular order. I also mostly put their initial offers. I managed to get most of them down to less than $3.50 a watt, but I didn't want to anger any of these installers by putting the final negotiated price.

Solar 360
Total System Size: 5.769 kW DC
Estimated Annual Production: 9,019 kWh
Panels: 18 SolarWorld SW320 XLMO
Inverter: SMA America Model SB5000TL
25 year warranty
Total Cost PreTax Credit: $21,600
Price per watt DC: $3.75

company b
Total System Size: 6.160 kW DC
Estimated Annual Production: 8,958
Panels: 22 Hanwah Q-Cells 280W
Inverter: 22 Enphase M250
10 year warranty
Total Cost PreTax Credit: $23,200
Price per watt DC: $3.76

Company C
Total System Size: 5.60 kW DC
Panels: 20 LG280S1C-B3
Inverter: SMA America Sunny Boy 5000TL-US
10 Year Warranty
Total Cost PreTax Credit: $19,600
Price per watt DC: $3.50

Company D
Total System Size: 4.950 kW DC
Estimated Annual Production: 7,600 kWh
Panels: 18 LG275S1C-B3
Inverter: 18 Enphase M250
10 year warranty
Total Cost PreTax Credit: $18,490
Price per watt DC: $3.74

Company E
Total System Size: 6.00 kW DC
Panels: 20 LG 300
Inverter: 20 Enphase M250
10 year warranty
Total Cost PreTax Credit: $19,800
Price per watt DC: $3.30

I found most of these guys on the California Solar Statistics website. So that is why they don't show up on Solar Reviews.

I also called Propower Group and never could connect with their Sales Person Chris.

I also called Solar Enver and every time the sales person called me they stated that they wanted to be the last company I meet with and required that my wife be at the meeting with me to sign the contract. I told him "No". They said it was their policy. I said "Thank you very much! Guess I'm not doing business with you!"

If you would like to know who I actually ended up going with, feel free to PM me or reply to this thread if you don't have enough posts. I actually have enough posts to respond now. The reason is because I want you to mention me if you do decide to go with them because I will get a referral credit. I am stating this up front so you know I have skin in this game. I also didn't want my name out there for everyone to see on this board.

[snowblind40]

Well, I can take photos and prove that you can indeed feed solar into a center fed main breaker. The bottom line is that the buss can not be allowed to draw too much power from the main and from the solar at the same time that the buss bar melts before the solar or main breaker trips.
Buss bars are rated higher than the main breaker so that the breaker trips before the buss burns up. Adding solar increases the total potential of power to the buss. By resizing the main breaker, you can protect the buss getting over current.

I will definitely let you know if I have trouble with my city approving the use of my center fed panel. That is definitely $1900 I don't want to spend.

I also just found out that I probably need reroof my rooftop before I put the solar in and it will cost me $7000.

[SanDiego_installer]

We regularly encounter center fed panels. If you have a 200A panel the best solution is to de-rate the main breaker to either 175A or 150A, depending on the system size. Your contractor will have to submit a load calculation with the permit plans. The average cost to de-rate is $400 and the new main breakers are readily available. Make sure your contractor has done this before. This should only be done by qualified electricians.

[maximizese]

Thanks snow-blind40. Your shared systematic approach has helped me local a few contractors in my area based on price and experience…a fantastic place to start. By your recommendations, I used the database to find the lower price/watt DC (<$4.50) and I narrowed the average system size to <7kW design. I'll be looking for a 3.12kW design to satisfy my electricity needs, but want to leave the system open for expansion to a 5kW system in the future (after adding an EV/PHEV to the garage). I only had one bid from a fairly low cost and highly rated contractor on solar review, but now I can compare 7 more contractors and see the various prices and equipment offered.

As for my roof, a roofer told me that my shingles look great and can go another 10-20 years, but the ridges will probably wear out in 7-10 years. He said to go ahead with the solar panel install as the panels will likely reduce the wear on the shingles.

[solar_newbie]

I will definitely let you know if I have trouble with my city approving the use of my center fed panel. That is definitely $1900 I don't want to spend.

I also just found out that I probably need reroof my rooftop before I put the solar in and it will cost me $7000.

Why you need to reroof and who make that suggestion ? Is the roof too old or having issue? How long it will last?

[SunEagle]

Why you need to reroof and who make that suggestion ? Is the roof too old or having issue? How long it will last?

It might be his home insurance policy company. Mine made me replace a 30 year rated shingle roof at 25 years or they threatened to drop my coverage.

[sdnd]

I don't have the post count but could you PM me with the referral? Would like to get a couple more bids before I commit.

TIA.

Weird that you guys consider a government .gov page a competitor. But hey, your site, your rules!

So here are all the companies I didn't go with in no particular order. I also mostly put their initial offers. I managed to get most of them down to less than $3.50 a watt, but I didn't want to anger any of these installers by putting the final negotiated price.

Solar 360
Total System Size: 5.769 kW DC
Estimated Annual Production: 9,019 kWh
Panels: 18 SolarWorld SW320 XLMO
Inverter: SMA America Model SB5000TL
25 year warranty
Total Cost PreTax Credit: $21,600
Price per watt DC: $3.75

company b
Total System Size: 6.160 kW DC
Estimated Annual Production: 8,958
Panels: 22 Hanwah Q-Cells 280W
Inverter: 22 Enphase M250
10 year warranty
Total Cost PreTax Credit: $23,200
Price per watt DC: $3.76

Company C
Total System Size: 5.60 kW DC
Panels: 20 LG280S1C-B3
Inverter: SMA America Sunny Boy 5000TL-US
10 Year Warranty
Total Cost PreTax Credit: $19,600
Price per watt DC: $3.50

Company D
Total System Size: 4.950 kW DC
Estimated Annual Production: 7,600 kWh
Panels: 18 LG275S1C-B3
Inverter: 18 Enphase M250
10 year warranty
Total Cost PreTax Credit: $18,490
Price per watt DC: $3.74

Company E
Total System Size: 6.00 kW DC
Panels: 20 LG 300
Inverter: 20 Enphase M250
10 year warranty
Total Cost PreTax Credit: $19,800
Price per watt DC: $3.30

I found most of these guys on the California Solar Statistics website. So that is why they don't show up on Solar Reviews.

I also called Propower Group and never could connect with their Sales Person Chris.

I also called Solar Enver and every time the sales person called me they stated that they wanted to be the last company I meet with and required that my wife be at the meeting with me to sign the contract. I told him "No". They said it was their policy. I said "Thank you very much! Guess I'm not doing business with you!"

If you would like to know who I actually ended up going with, feel free to PM me or reply to this thread if you don't have enough posts. I actually have enough posts to respond now. The reason is because I want you to mention me if you do decide to go with them because I will get a referral credit. I am stating this up front so you know I have skin in this game. I also didn't want my name out there for everyone to see on this board.

[nomadh]

It depends on how much you are feeding in etc. with center feed you can't use the 120% rule. You may have other options like line side tap.

I have never understood this. If you add a 15kw system to cover a 15 kw load you still didn't add any more power to the house. You are just getting your power from a different place. If the solar enters at the buss bar then that is 15k that is not coming from the poco. You didn't suddenly suck 30kw into the house. Is there some sort of fault condition where this doesn't apply? And couldn't it happen just as easily without the solar array?

[ButchDeal]

I have never understood this. If you add a 15kw system to cover a 15 kw load you still didn't add any more power to the house. You are just getting your power from a different place. If the solar enters at the buss bar then that is 15k that is not coming from the poco. You didn't suddenly suck 30kw into the house. Is there some sort of fault condition where this doesn't apply? And couldn't it happen just as easily without the solar array?

the issue is trying to protect the wires (including the bus in the MSP). These wires are what will cause a fire so say you have a 100a MSP with a 100A bus and you hooked up a 15kw system which would (depending on inverter solution) probably require at least a 65A breaker (if you could fine one ). so not the bus has potential for 165A to be feed to it but it is only rated at 100a, that could easily lead to a fire.

[inetdog]

I have never understood this. If you add a 15kw system to cover a 15 kw load you still didn't add any more power to the house. You are just getting your power from a different place. If the solar enters at the buss bar then that is 15k that is not coming from the poco. You didn't suddenly suck 30kw into the house. Is there some sort of fault condition where this doesn't apply? And couldn't it happen just as easily without the solar array?

The motivation behind the 120% rule is this (and it does not necessarily make logical sense, but that is the way codes and regulations often go):

1. The bus in the panel (or the wire for feeders) can only handle a certain amount of current.
2. The branch circuit breakers will normally add up to a number greater than that bus capacity number. This just happens because for some circuits the breaker is far larger than the normal load and for other groups of circuits the loads are seldom on at the same time. So the only practical way to protect the bus from overload is to use a main breaker that trips at that value or smaller. Note that in some panels the bus rating is actually higher than the largest main breaker size available. For example a 200A load center may have a 225A bus.) For the moment we will assume that breaker size = bus rating.
Once you provide a second source of power feeding the bus the maximum current in the bus is no longer limited by the main breaker alone. Instead you add the main breaker size to the solar PV backfeed rating. The latter is the sum of the first inverter output breakers under the 2011 NEC or the sum of the inverter rated outputs for 2014 NEC. Under this condition, nobody with a panel whose bus matches the main breaker exactly could add any PV at all. One way around this is to change the main breaker to a smaller size IF the calculated load on the panel is low enough to allow a smaller main.
Note that if the main breaker and the PV breaker are next to each other the current in the bus beyond that point could be the sum of the two.
3. But if you instead put the PV breaker at the opposite end of the bus from the main breaker, any excess load in between the two will be fed partially by the main and partially by the PV backfeed and the bus is not actually being overloaded at any point. Because of this geometry, theoretically the PV breaker could also be as large as the bus rating and still not have any bus problems. But the code makers were just too nervous to allow that, so they allowed 120% of the bus rating instead of twice the bus rating.
4. Center fed panels (with the main breaker at the middle of the bus instead of one end) do not currently qualify for this special treatment since there will be the possibility of having all the load on the same side of both breakers.

[snowblind40]

This is the Finished Product. Finally done and happy with the outcome.

[maximizese]

Cool. Everything looks uniform and seems that they took extra care with sealing up the rack bolts. Hopefully no leaks during El Nino. I'll be looking to use the equipment on my pitched roof, that is Solarworld and Enphase M215.