A few things I have learned as I get ready to sign my contract for Solar

[snowblind40]

First of all, thank you to everyone who posts here regularly. I spent a ton of time studying past threads and learned a ton of information very quickly. You have no idea how much it immediately increased the quality of the conversations I was having with vendors. As soon as they realized how well I knew my stuff the conversations about prices never went above $4/kW DC and I was able to find several vendors who offered me well below my goal pricing of less than $3.50.

So for those of you who are still having trouble getting quotes below $4 or even $3.50, knowledge is POWER! READ THE FORUMS! Do you know how to use the PVWatts site? Have you learned how to calculate the proper size of system that you need based on your usage from last year? I'm not saying you need to start making spreadsheets or going super in depth like some people on this forum have, but at least understand some basic knowledge so you can stand toe to toe with a Solar Sales person and not let them control a situation when YOU are the one spending the $20k-$30k on this system.

In order to find vendors for solar, I quickly realized that begging for references here on this board is not going to be enough. I knew I needed at least 5 companies bidding for my business. Since I am in California, I used the California Solar Statistics Website to look for contractors in my area. I basically did a 10 mile radius search and then imported the CSV file into Excel so I can sort it by number of systems installed and price per watt. I then compared those companies to a similar search on Solar Reviews to get an idea of who was reputable. I also cross referenced on Yelp. Then I started calling up companies that fulfilled my criteria of installed at least 2 systems in my area, their average price was $5/kW or below and had decent reviews. Viola! 4 bids right away that were sub $3.50.

What I learned about Solar Panels:

• Poly vs. Mono doesn't matter.
• Everyone on this forum loves LG or SolarWorld. Both are fine, but don't ignore other companies like Canadian solar or Hanwah if the vendor will charge you less for them.
• Larger panels aren't necessarily better unless you are limited in space. In fact, more panels might capture more sun energy because the panels are spread across a larger area.
• All-black panels look WAY cooler than silver framed panels and are worth the extra cost if you can see the panels from the street. IMHO

What I learned about Inverters:

• SMA vs. SolarEdge vs. Enphase should probably be the three systems you are looking at. Anyone offering anything else you should probably move on because those are the systems people talk about most on this forum so you will have the most information on them.
• SMA's advantage is their onboard battery incase of power outage and transformerless design. There are no moving parts when there is no transformer so theoretically less likely to fail. SMA is also probably the most installed inverter on the market.
• SolarEdge utilizes optimizers to make a string inverter act a bit like microinverters. So if you like the idea of microinverters but aren't convinced that the technology is reliable yet, then SolarEdge is a great compromize.
• SolarEdge also seems to have the best stock performance over the past year of the three companies in case any of you are concerned for the health of the company you are installing.
• Enphase microinverters perform the best when shade is an issue from neighboring structures or trees. Also take into account cloudy days if you live near the ocean. Understand the idea of clipping and make sure you don't get huge panels for a smaller microinverter.
• Ease of installation is also a big reason why installers love Enphase. Since there is no main inverter, running lines to the electrical panel is much easier.
• Another sales person told me that he thinks Enphase is more efficient because as soon as the sun hits the first panel in the morning, it starts producing energy, so it starts producing earlier and will stop later because of the natural motion of the sun. No idea if this is true or not, but it made sense to me in theory.
• For all of these systems, make sure you installer includes online monitoring of your power output in some form or another. All the vendors I worked with promised that I would be able to monitor my system either through an app or online with no additional cost to me.

I did not learn much about racking... just that I should make sure that the installer has done enough systems to understand how to best attach these to your roof. Don't let them experiment with a new racking system on your house!

If your panel is only 100V you will need a new panel. It will cost $1500-$2000 for a new one. Tell your installer to make it so that you can get the 30% tax credit on the panel by bundling it with the solar install. If your main breaker is in the middle of your panel, you might need to get a new panel.

The Federal Tax Credit expires on December 31, 2016. No solar companies have any idea what will happen after that or if their business will be viable after that. You also probably don't want to wait until 3rd or 4th quarter 2016 to get your system. There is going to be a huge backlog of people trying to get their systems before the end of the Federal Tax Credit.

Net Metering rules also likely change in 2017. Net Metering is basically the way that you are able to produce electricity from your solar system and store it on the grid by way of credits. You can then use those credits to pay for the electricity you use. As long as you get your system before they change the rules, you will be grandfathered into the old rules for 20 years.

Learn about Time of Use ("TOU" on this forum). If nobody is in your house during the day and very little electricity is being used during the day, this may be a great option for you after you get your solar installed. If this is true for you, you may not need to offset all your usage with your system and you may be able to get a smaller system and save some money. If you work at home all day and have the A/C running all day, this is probably not the best option for you.

Compare warranties from one installer to the next. Some installers offer 10 year and some 25 year. All installers are required to offer at least a 10 year warranty. Might be worth paying a bit more for the installer who offers a 25 year warranty.

Decide on the type of inverter you want in your system first. Then when you talk to installers, ask them what they prefer to install and install the most of. Then only choose the installer that NORMALLY and ROUTINELY places the inverter that YOU prefer. If they say, "We have installed Enphase in nearly all our projects but since you prefer SolarEdge, we are happy to install that one for you." Find another company that installs mostly SolarEdge! You want the expert at the thing they are putting on your house!

Ask for a referral reward from your installer and make sure your referrer gets credit and his reward for bringing you to them.

Never settle for the first offer they give you. Every company I worked with always lowered their bids when they heard that I was taking bids from 5 other companies.

Anyway, this is very long already. Hope it helps. Good luck to you all!

Snowblind40

[Solarfordummy]

First of all, thank you to everyone who posts here regularly. I spent a ton of time studying past threads and learned a ton of information very quickly. You have no idea how much it immediately increased the quality of the conversations I was having with vendors. As soon as they realized how well I knew my stuff the conversations about prices never went above $4/kW DC and I was able to find several vendors who offered me well below my goal pricing of less than $3.50.

So for those of you who are still having trouble getting quotes below $4 or even $3.50, knowledge is POWER! READ THE FORUMS! Do you know how to use the PVWatts site? Have you learned how to calculate the proper size of system that you need based on your usage from last year? I'm not saying you need to start making spreadsheets or going super in depth like some people on this forum have, but at least understand some basic knowledge so you can stand toe to toe with a Solar Sales person and not let them control a situation when YOU are the one spending the $20k-$30k on this system.

In order to find vendors for solar, I quickly realized that begging for references here on this board is not going to be enough. I knew I needed at least 5 companies bidding for my business. Since I am in California, I used the California Solar Statistics Website to look for contractors in my area. I basically did a 10 mile radius search and then imported the CSV file into Excel so I can sort it by number of systems installed and price per watt. I then compared those companies to a similar search on Solar Reviews to get an idea of who was reputable. I also cross referenced on Yelp. Then I started calling up companies that fulfilled my criteria of installed at least 2 systems in my area, their average price was $5/kW or below and had decent reviews. Viola! 4 bids right away that were sub $3.50.

What I learned about Solar Panels:

• Poly vs. Mono doesn't matter.
• Everyone on this forum loves LG or SolarWorld. Both are fine, but don't ignore other companies like Canadian solar or Hanwah if the vendor will charge you less for them.
• Larger panels aren't necessarily better unless you are limited in space. In fact, more panels might capture more sun energy because the panels are spread across a larger area.
• All-black panels look WAY cooler than silver framed panels and are worth the extra cost if you can see the panels from the street. IMHO

What I learned about Inverters:

• SMA vs. SolarEdge vs. Enphase should probably be the three systems you are looking at. Anyone offering anything else you should probably move on because those are the systems people talk about most on this forum so you will have the most information on them.
• SMA's advantage is their onboard battery incase of power outage and transformerless design. There are no moving parts when there is no transformer so theoretically less likely to fail. SMA is also probably the most installed inverter on the market.
• SolarEdge utilizes optimizers to make a string inverter act a bit like microinverters. So if you like the idea of microinverters but aren't convinced that the technology is reliable yet, then SolarEdge is a great compromize.
• SolarEdge also seems to have the best stock performance over the past year of the three companies in case any of you are concerned for the health of the company you are installing.
• Enphase microinverters perform the best when shade is an issue from neighboring structures or trees. Also take into account cloudy days if you live near the ocean. Understand the idea of clipping and make sure you don't get huge panels for a smaller microinverter.
• Ease of installation is also a big reason why installers love Enphase. Since there is no main inverter, running lines to the electrical panel is much easier.
• Another sales person told me that he thinks Enphase is more efficient because as soon as the sun hits the first panel in the morning, it starts producing energy, so it starts producing earlier and will stop later because of the natural motion of the sun. No idea if this is true or not, but it made sense to me in theory.
• For all of these systems, make sure you installer includes online monitoring of your power output in some form or another. All the vendors I worked with promised that I would be able to monitor my system either through an app or online with no additional cost to me.

I did not learn much about racking... just that I should make sure that the installer has done enough systems to understand how to best attach these to your roof. Don't let them experiment with a new racking system on your house!

If your panel is only 100V you will need a new panel. It will cost $1500-$2000 for a new one. Tell your installer to make it so that you can get the 30% tax credit on the panel by bundling it with the solar install. If your main breaker is in the middle of your panel, you might need to get a new panel.

The Federal Tax Credit expires on December 31, 2016. No solar companies have any idea what will happen after that or if their business will be viable after that. You also probably don't want to wait until 3rd or 4th quarter 2016 to get your system. There is going to be a huge backlog of people trying to get their systems before the end of the Federal Tax Credit.

Net Metering rules also likely change in 2017. Net Metering is basically the way that you are able to produce electricity from your solar system and store it on the grid by way of credits. You can then use those credits to pay for the electricity you use. As long as you get your system before they change the rules, you will be grandfathered into the old rules for 20 years.

Learn about Time of Use ("TOU" on this forum). If nobody is in your house during the day and very little electricity is being used during the day, this may be a great option for you after you get your solar installed. If this is true for you, you may not need to offset all your usage with your system and you may be able to get a smaller system and save some money. If you work at home all day and have the A/C running all day, this is probably not the best option for you.

Compare warranties from one installer to the next. Some installers offer 10 year and some 25 year. All installers are required to offer at least a 10 year warranty. Might be worth paying a bit more for the installer who offers a 25 year warranty.

Ask for a referral reward from your installer and make sure your referrer gets credit and his reward for bringing you to them.

Never settle for the first offer they give you. Every company I worked with always lowered their bids when they heard that I was taking bids from 5 other companies.

Anyway, this is very long already. Hope it helps. Good luck to you all!

Snowblind40

Wow. This is so great!
Have you decide on which installer to go with yet?
If you don't mind, please PM the contact information.
I have a couple quotes and still comparing, but I have a hard time deciding if it's a similar quotes, should I go with a bigger company who only do solar or a smaller company who do other stuffs and well.
I know they both have pros and cons. What do you think?

[justthinking]

Great Post!

I just want to add this, I choose SolarEdge because its collaboration with Tesla and the ability to add Tesla Powerwall in the future

[inetdog]

Several small quibbles:

There are a wide variety of good string grid tie inverters beyond SMA, and although their technical features are outstanding SMA can be more expensive for the same size inverter.
The SMA Secure Power Supply does NOT involve a battery, small or otherwise. It is powered directly from the panels with maybe a capacitor storage to even out the current over each half cycle. It has the disadvantage that when a cloud crosses the sun the output drops immediately and if the load is too heavy it shuts down for a few minutes.

[rock]

first read...

this is my first visit and first thread to read...
thanks guys. I think I've found a good site!

[skipro3]

A panel with the main breaker in the middle works fine with my Solaredge system. I don't know how it got started that your utility needs to be at one end of the panel and your solar at the other. It's just not true.

[sensij]

A panel with the main breaker in the middle works fine with my Solaredge system. I don't know how it got started that your utility needs to be at one end of the panel and your solar at the other. It's just not true.

The requirements for center fed and end fed service panels are different. Generally, end fed installations are easier to get permitted, and can accept more pv power than an equivalent center fed panel.

[skipro3]

The requirements for center fed and end fed service panels are different. Generally, end fed installations are easier to get permitted, and can accept more pv power than an equivalent center fed panel.

My plans didn't stipulate the breaker locations. They only included one line drawings. I've asked Solaredge specifically this question. They told me that the order of breakers doesn't matter. When my inspector arrived, I asked him. He gave me an odd look and also told me it doesn't matter, just so long as the labels are placed. I asked him about power distribution, he said buss size determined, not the breaker placement.

I'd love to see a manufacturer's requirement stating breaker placement in a panel affects more or less power, or any county code for that matter. I've not been able to independently verify that.

[sensij]

My plans didn't stipulate the breaker locations. They only included one line drawings. I've asked Solaredge specifically this question. They told me that the order of breakers doesn't matter. When my inspector arrived, I asked him. He gave me an odd look and also told me it doesn't matter, just so long as the labels are placed.

Read the nec, and think carefully about how the current will flow through the busbar. It does matter.

[skipro3]

Read the nec, and think carefully about how the current will flow through the busbar. It does matter.

The average customer doesn't have to think about it, they rely on the installer, the installers engineers, the installers licensed electricians, the product manufacturers installation instructions, the county inspectors. If none of them I've talked with say breaker placement in the panel matters, then that is what I'll trust. I'd love to see the documentation that says they are wrong and the dangers of it.

[sensij]

The average customer doesn't have to think about it, they rely on the installer, the installers engineers, the installers licensed electricians, the product manufacturers installation instructions, the county inspectors. If none of them I've talked with say breaker placement in the panel matters, then that is what I'll trust. I'd love to see the documentation that says they are wrong and the dangers of it.

See 705.12(D), read this link, or google "120% rule". Seriously, just because *your* experience was different, doesn't mean these rules don't exist and affect many others, or that there isn't a good technical reason for the requirements as they are written.

[solar pete]

First of all, thank you to everyone who posts here regularly. I spent a ton of time studying past threads and learned a ton of information very quickly. You have no idea how much it immediately increased the quality of the conversations I was having with vendors. As soon as they realized how well I knew my stuff the conversations about prices never went above $4/kW DC and I was able to find several vendors who offered me well below my goal pricing of less than $3.50.

So for those of you who are still having trouble getting quotes below $4 or even $3.50, knowledge is POWER! READ THE FORUMS! Do you know how to use the PVWatts site? Have you learned how to calculate the proper size of system that you need based on your usage from last year? I'm not saying you need to start making spreadsheets or going super in depth like some people on this forum have, but at least understand some basic knowledge so you can stand toe to toe with a Solar Sales person and not let them control a situation when YOU are the one spending the $20k-$30k on this system.

In order to find vendors for solar, I quickly realized that begging for references here on this board is not going to be enough. I knew I needed at least 5 companies bidding for my business. Since I am in California, I used the California Solar Statistics Website to look for contractors in my area. I basically did a 10 mile radius search and then imported the CSV file into Excel so I can sort it by number of systems installed and price per watt. I then compared those companies to a similar search on Solar Reviews to get an idea of who was reputable. I also cross referenced on Yelp. Then I started calling up companies that fulfilled my criteria of installed at least 2 systems in my area, their average price was $5/kW or below and had decent reviews. Viola! 4 bids right away that were sub $3.50.

What I learned about Solar Panels:

• Poly vs. Mono doesn't matter.
• Everyone on this forum loves LG or SolarWorld. Both are fine, but don't ignore other companies like Canadian solar or Hanwah if the vendor will charge you less for them.
• Larger panels aren't necessarily better unless you are limited in space. In fact, more panels might capture more sun energy because the panels are spread across a larger area.
• All-black panels look WAY cooler than silver framed panels and are worth the extra cost if you can see the panels from the street. IMHO

What I learned about Inverters:

• SMA vs. SolarEdge vs. Enphase should probably be the three systems you are looking at. Anyone offering anything else you should probably move on because those are the systems people talk about most on this forum so you will have the most information on them.
• SMA's advantage is their onboard battery incase of power outage and transformerless design. There are no moving parts when there is no transformer so theoretically less likely to fail. SMA is also probably the most installed inverter on the market.
• SolarEdge utilizes optimizers to make a string inverter act a bit like microinverters. So if you like the idea of microinverters but aren't convinced that the technology is reliable yet, then SolarEdge is a great compromize.
• SolarEdge also seems to have the best stock performance over the past year of the three companies in case any of you are concerned for the health of the company you are installing.
• Enphase microinverters perform the best when shade is an issue from neighboring structures or trees. Also take into account cloudy days if you live near the ocean. Understand the idea of clipping and make sure you don't get huge panels for a smaller microinverter.
• Ease of installation is also a big reason why installers love Enphase. Since there is no main inverter, running lines to the electrical panel is much easier.
• Another sales person told me that he thinks Enphase is more efficient because as soon as the sun hits the first panel in the morning, it starts producing energy, so it starts producing earlier and will stop later because of the natural motion of the sun. No idea if this is true or not, but it made sense to me in theory.
• For all of these systems, make sure you installer includes online monitoring of your power output in some form or another. All the vendors I worked with promised that I would be able to monitor my system either through an app or online with no additional cost to me.

I did not learn much about racking... just that I should make sure that the installer has done enough systems to understand how to best attach these to your roof. Don't let them experiment with a new racking system on your house!

If your panel is only 100V you will need a new panel. It will cost $1500-$2000 for a new one. Tell your installer to make it so that you can get the 30% tax credit on the panel by bundling it with the solar install. If your main breaker is in the middle of your panel, you might need to get a new panel.

The Federal Tax Credit expires on December 31, 2016. No solar companies have any idea what will happen after that or if their business will be viable after that. You also probably don't want to wait until 3rd or 4th quarter 2016 to get your system. There is going to be a huge backlog of people trying to get their systems before the end of the Federal Tax Credit.

Net Metering rules also likely change in 2017. Net Metering is basically the way that you are able to produce electricity from your solar system and store it on the grid by way of credits. You can then use those credits to pay for the electricity you use. As long as you get your system before they change the rules, you will be grandfathered into the old rules for 20 years.

Learn about Time of Use ("TOU" on this forum). If nobody is in your house during the day and very little electricity is being used during the day, this may be a great option for you after you get your solar installed. If this is true for you, you may not need to offset all your usage with your system and you may be able to get a smaller system and save some money. If you work at home all day and have the A/C running all day, this is probably not the best option for you.

Compare warranties from one installer to the next. Some installers offer 10 year and some 25 year. All installers are required to offer at least a 10 year warranty. Might be worth paying a bit more for the installer who offers a 25 year warranty.

Ask for a referral reward from your installer and make sure your referrer gets credit and his reward for bringing you to them.

Never settle for the first offer they give you. Every company I worked with always lowered their bids when they heard that I was taking bids from 5 other companies.

Anyway, this is very long already. Hope it helps. Good luck to you all!

Snowblind40

Wow, great in depth post, nice work. Just had to de-link the links to direct competitors of the owners, cheers
P.S who did you end up going with (apologies if you already said and I missed it) its cool now to mention your installer as long as its a link to their www.solarreviews.com page, cheers.

[snowblind40]

Great Post!

I just want to add this, I choose SolarEdge because its collaboration with Tesla and the ability to add Tesla Powerwall in the future

I considered the idea of getting a battery in the future but Power Outages are so rare and I will have net metering for at least 20 years so I figured I can probably wait on spending thousands of dollars on a pretty wall ornament. But that is totally just my opinion.

[snowblind40]

Several small quibbles:

There are a wide variety of good string grid tie inverters beyond SMA, and although their technical features are outstanding SMA can be more expensive for the same size inverter.
The SMA Secure Power Supply does NOT involve a battery, small or otherwise. It is powered directly from the panels with maybe a capacitor storage to even out the current over each half cycle. It has the disadvantage that when a cloud crosses the sun the output drops immediately and if the load is too heavy it shuts down for a few minutes.

I forgot to preface my post with the fact that I am a total solar newbie and by no means an expert in anything. Thank you so much for clearing this up! I thought a lot more people would have a ton more quibbles with my post!

[snowblind40]

A panel with the main breaker in the middle works fine with my Solaredge system. I don't know how it got started that your utility needs to be at one end of the panel and your solar at the other. It's just not true.

The only reason I bring this up is because I happen to have a panel with a main breaker in the middle and while we are hoping the city doesn't force us to get a new panel, my installer mentioned that it is possible they may make me get a new one. Stupid thing is that I just remodeled my house 2 years ago and my panel is only 2 years old!!! I REALLY hope the city doesn't make me get a new one!