Solar City at NO COST??

[Tommygun45]

Your description of panel rating is incorrect. A 300 Watt panel will produce 300 Watts when under direct irradiance of 1,000 Watts/m^2 and the panel is at a temp. of 25 deg. C. That's in a lab or on a production line. Under actual operating conditions, the output will most likely be less than that and variable form minute to minute, depending on sunshine level and other weather variables.

Run PVWatts for an estimate of long term output. You'll probably find that a 6Kw system will produce a fair amount more than 6,000 kWh/yr. with decent orientation and low shading.

Also, 100% offset of an electric bill may not be the most cost effective way to go, depending on billing and tariffs in effect, SREC' levels, etc.

So why then if each solar panel produces less than its rated will the system produce more than its rated to each year?

[donald]

"No Cost"?

it interesting how signing a twenty year contract with monthly payments becomes "no cost". PPA's are a type of loan. The total payments are $20k-$40K. You can own the system for $10K-20K.

PPA's are a great deal for solarcity, especially as they keep the ITC.

[Wy_White_Wolf]

How much it's going to cost you
Monthly Yearly
169.00 2028.00
173.90 2086.81
178.94 2147.33
184.13 2209.60
189.47 2273.68
194.97 2339.62
200.62 2407.47
206.44 2477.28
212.43 2549.12
218.59 2623.05
224.93 2699.12
231.45 2777.39
238.16 2857.94
245.07 2940.82
252.17 3026.10
259.49 3113.86
267.01 3204.16
274.76 3297.08
282.72 3392.69
290.92 3491.08
53942.19 over 20 years

[J.P.M.]

So why then if each solar panel produces less than its rated will the system produce more than its rated to each year?

Since you ask:

1.) First: Note the difference between 1 Watt (W) or kiloWatt (kW) and 1 Watt-hour (Wh) or kiloWatt -hour (kWh).

- Watts are the term for power, or the time rate of doing work.

- 1 Watt-hr. is the total work or energy expended (or produced) when done at a constant rate of 1 Watt over a 1 hour period.

2.) Solar PV panels are rated in Watts. Under "normal" or real world actual operating conditions, the solar input will vary due to different levels of irradiance, angle on incidence, and some other stuff.

So a panel "rated at 300 Watts under test conditions (as very briefly described in my prior post to this thread) may, under "good" actual operating conditions of, say, 900W/m^2 irradiance and some fairly steady weather conditions, put out, say, about 18% of that 900 W/m^ as power. --->>> 900 X .18 = 162 Watts. For the next hour, because the irradiance level will change as will the air and panel temps, the array output will be different than the previous hour. So, say, the panel output drops to 140 Watt-hours for that 2d hour. So far, for the two hours, the panel has produced 162+140 Watt hours = 302 Watt hours, Or .302 kiloWatt-hours of electricity.

Now, measure the output of the panel for each hour for an entire year. Then addem' up. That sum will be all the electricity in terms of kiloWatt-hours that the panel produced over the course of 1 year. Say that total comes out to be 375 kiloWatt hours of electricity.

If you need an array of panels to produce, say, 8,000 kWh/year, and using the above example, you will need (8.000 kWh/yr.)/(375 kWh/yr./panel) = 21.3 panels --->>> 22 panels.

22ea., 300 Watt panels = 22 X 300 = 6,600 Watts. or a 6.6 kW array (electrical) size.

So, using the above VERY brief and VERY oversimplified example, with a lot of gory details left out, each installed kW of solar panel rated power will produce approximately 1,250 kWh per year for each 1 kW of array size, (375) X (22)/ 6,600 = 1,250.

That, in a nutshell, is the Reader's digest version of why.

[Naptown]

Huge red flag in the OP
He currently pays .22 a kWh to his utility.
If he uses more than the produces the cost per kWh goes down to .13 a kWh.
I would verify that is the case from the utility. Sounds like a scam information to me.

[NancyLee]

Thank you all for the information.

Right now I don't want to take out a loan to buy the equipment but I need the break in the electrical bill monthly. (This month will be over $400) I like having to pay nothing upfront at all even if I pay more over the 20 years. My cost per month for the "Pay to own" is $162 plus all the taxes and other BS charges.

I know if I go with Solar City I will "Pay To Own" over 20years or do a buy out after 5 years. The rebates are applied to the total cost of the system so if / when I do buy the system I see I will be getting that discount. Buying upfront is no something I can do right now

I do like having the warranty for 20 years if I "Pay To Own" this way if anything goes wrong they have to come out and take care of service and equipment at no cost to me. Another thing I like is if I start using more power they come back out and add to my system at no cost to me. I will be adding to my "Pay to Own $" but I have the option which is nice.

Does anyone know how much power I can "Bank" with the power company before they cap off? I would like to "bank" enough to get me through the bad snow season.

I would love more feedback and I like honesty.

Anyone from the NE that has solar I am looking to hear about the Snow issues.

Thanks,
Drew

We're in the same boat as you. It just seems logical as our house is sitting in the blaring sun all the time. I'm expecting our electric bill to be near, if not over, $1000.00 for July. We can't afford to buy a system and it's so new around here that, even if we were to buy the system, we don't understand enough about the technology to maintain it properly. Our guy told us that we can bank the credit indefinitely but I am going to call the electric Co just to be sure. He showed us pics of houses in the snow and the panels are clear. I can't imagine it would hang around for long with the roof pitch and that they are designed to absorb heat. We are also going to ask around, as awkward as it might seem. He gave us some names but I know of a couple of older installs and I will go knocking on doors lol Our blueprints show 49 panels (yikes) which we could add to if we lose trees but we won't, we like those trees It would be nice to not worry about AC bills in the summer...

[bcroe]

It just seems logical as our house is sitting in the blaring sun all the time. I'm expecting our electric bill to be near, if not over, $1000.00 for July.

He showed us pics of houses in the snow and the panels are clear. I can't imagine it would hang around for long with the roof pitch and that they are designed to absorb heat.

It would be nice to not worry about AC bills in the summer...

If you have snow, it will often cover even nearly vertical panels. I don't know where you are, but in
N ILL that snow could stay a long time if not removed. Panels aren't going to absorb any heat if
snow reflects the sunlight.

I started making changes when my bill exceeded $150 a month. If your A/C is the big consumer
you could consider one of the latest high efficiency heat pumps; initially expensive but should pay
off in a short time for you. And of course look into insulating the house better. After that is in good
order, look into what solar might do for you. good luck, Bruce Roe

[Naptown]

Thank you all for the information.

Right now I don't want to take out a loan to buy the equipment but I need the break in the electrical bill monthly. (This month will be over $400) I like having to pay nothing upfront at all even if I pay more over the 20 years. My cost per month for the "Pay to own" is $162 plus all the taxes and other BS charges.

I know if I go with Solar City I will "Pay To Own" over 20years or do a buy out after 5 years. The rebates are applied to the total cost of the system so if / when I do buy the system I see I will be getting that discount. Buying upfront is no something I can do right now

I do like having the warranty for 20 years if I "Pay To Own" this way if anything goes wrong they have to come out and take care of service and equipment at no cost to me. Another thing I like is if I start using more power they come back out and add to my system at no cost to me. I will be adding to my "Pay to Own $" but I have the option which is nice.

Does anyone know how much power I can "Bank" with the power company before they cap off? I would like to "bank" enough to get me through the bad snow season.

I would love more feedback and I like honesty.

Anyone from the NE that has solar I am looking to hear about the Snow issues.

Thanks,
Drew

You do realize that the lease is essentially a loan. Same hit on the credit report, monthly expense etc.
And the accelerator in the lease could outstrip the utility increases.
Look into a purchase with say a 12 year low interest rate buy down.
Yes it will cost more than a cash purchase but all the incentives and the full savings from the production are yours to keep as opposed to a few cents per kWh.

[Naptown]

Also go to dsireusa.org to look up the incentives available. An independent installer will tell you what is available.
From a quick read on let's say a 10 KW system
Initial cost 40000
Federal credit 12000
Connecticut incentive 5400
Net cost 22600
Say 12000kwh per year production
Multiply that by your utility rate. ( also do a pvwatts calculation to get actual numbers.
Divide savings by 12 months.
You should come out ahead of solar city and with 8 years less payments.

[Bill SEPA]

My Solar City experience this week kinda raised red flags for me. The install cost (ownership by me) was crazy high compared to others. They really were pushing hard for PPA. Then when I asked to read the contract for both the refused and said I could only read one contract, it took a lot of back and forth to be able to just read the terms and conditions of the contract. This did not sit well with me. HARD SELL for PPA.

[J.P.M.]

My Solar City experience this week kinda raised red flags for me. The install cost (ownership by me) was crazy high compared to others. They really were pushing hard for PPA. Then when I asked to read the contract for both the refused and said I could only read one contract, it took a lot of back and forth to be able to just read the terms and conditions of the contract. This did not sit well with me. HARD SELL for PPA.

For all the B.S you got, why are you still thinking about them as a viable possibility ?

[Bill SEPA]

For all the B.S you got, why are you still thinking about them as a viable possibility ?

They were ruled out. The only part of their deal that was tempting was that they would provide maintenance and monitoring for the life of the deal. (read: new inverters at end of life cycle etc.)

[J.P.M.]

They were ruled out. The only part of their deal that was tempting was that they would provide maintenance and monitoring for the life of the deal. (read: new inverters at end of life cycle etc.)

Most folks seem to have an uninformed idea about how much maint. a PV array usually and commonly needs. If I didn't know anything about the subject, and simply watched the (lack of) activity caused by the solar arrays once installed and talked to my solar arrayed neighbors about the last time they needed service, I'd self-conclude the maint. issue that lessors and PPA peddlers make such a big deal of and use as a scare tactic (just like peddlers of extended warranties do), while not totally B.S., is largely a red herring/scare tactic. Maint. issues do exist. But, while my length of observation is short ( ~ 6+ yrs. at this time), after watching about 74 arrays go up in my HOA and counting, and reviewing every one of them prior to install, anecdotally, and so far, most are trouble free from startup, with any problems occurring shortly after commissioning. Granted, a lot of those arrays are quite new, but, so far, in my HOA anyway, there have been no string inverter failures, and I believe, no micro failures, aside from a wiring issue /2, and no solar panel failures out of, I'd guess something like ~ 1,000+ total solar panels installed. IMO, lessors and PPA peddlers are WAY overblowing maint. cost estimates for use as a marketing tool to help get in customers wallets and knickers quicker and more easily. Take what you want of the above. scrap the rest.

[nomadh]

Dont automatically rule out a lease. The lease over long term will cost you a fortune usually but most leases can be prepaid. I found sometimes the prepaid lease with you doing your own financing can may cost less than a solar system after the 30% tax incentive. And you don't need to wait for tax time or if your tax is already low multiple tax years. Just something to look at.

[J.P.M.]

Dont automatically rule out a lease. The lease over long term will cost you a fortune usually but most leases can be prepaid. I found sometimes the prepaid lease with you doing your own financing can may cost less than a solar system after the 30% tax incentive. And you don't need to wait for tax time or if your tax is already low multiple tax years. Just something to look at.

Think long term - like 20 years and the consequences, both + and - . There are non financial considerations as well as those of a process economics viewpoint.