Solar Edge Vs Enphase Power optimizers

[scarp]

I am not out of the loop as you may think. A GOOD distributor SHOULD be in the loop on failures, for a couple of reasons. First, a distributor wants to know of issues because they do not want to be providing an inferior item. Second, they want to take care of their installer, so that they installer can make their customer happy. The quicker they resolve issues, the less chance the customer will be unhappy with the installer, and the better chance for referrals from that customer. We are not the typical solar distributor that just funnels everything through the manufacturer's warranty. I am the first call my customers make when they have an issue, whether it is fresh out of the box, or 5 years from now. Why would they want to wait for the warranty process to unfold, if they have a distributor that will take care of the issue immediately?? As I said, they call me first because they know we will provide them a working unit the same day, rather than wait for the warranty process to unfold. But, I won't beat a dead horse...

[ButchDeal]

I am not claiming that you are fudging numbers, but rather you are not in the loop as a distributor. your numbers reflect that. I work for and am a founder in and review all installs for a national market place. We primarily install SolarEdge but we also install string and micros. Distributors wouldn't be involved in failures. We have less than your are claiming in installed equipment so far but higher failure rates, primarily DOAs. Your count of 50k units with less than 5 failures doesn't seem to match ours or any of our installers, or general community, or even the manufacture failure rates.

SolarEdge flags failures immediately (well by default after 24 hours). Our company grants full view access to customers and monitors these failures. Most homeowners will not notice a string or micro or solaredge till the next bill. We do though. Granted this is a lot of weed eating work as often the failures are snow WiFi related but they are pretty easy to see, with SolarEdge at least (it puts the local weather report right on the page and you can graph temperature along with output.).
We also get them all to pvoutput so the customer can see easily there as well as the communities they purchased through (pvoutput teams).

[scarp]

ButchDeal.... We have nearly 30 locations nationwide. I can only speak to what I have seen at my location. At this location, we have been selling 10,000+ a year for the last 5 years. So, let's conservatively put that number at 50,000 units, with probably 5 failures for our location. Now, the thing about micros is that if one fails, many times a home owner is not even aware of it, unless they are constantly watching power production. Since the other 15-30 micros that are installed are still producing, they see little drop in system output (maybe 3-5%). So, if one goes out, it often is not urgent that an installer come out and replace it. They can go out when they do their scheduled maintenance and swap it out. Now, if a string inverter fails, it is a huge issue, as all production stops immediately, and the homeowner will definitely see the issue immediately.

By the way, I have no reason to fudge numbers. I sell micros, Solar Edge, and string inverters. I leave it up to the installer to tell me what they want, not the other way around. If he wants a string inverter, a string inverter he will get. I do not try to upsell, or change an installers mind. To me, a happy customer is the best customer. Will I let them know of new products available? Sure. That is what good salespeople do. If it makes sense to them, they will buy, If not, they will continue with what they are currently doing.

[ButchDeal]

it is your counts that clearly prove that you are only dealing with some cases.
You are making the claim that you sell "hundreds of thousands of Enphase micros each year nationwide" but have had less than 5 failures.... We have had 5 failed DOA units on a single job. They turned out to be very close serial numbers and a bad run.

The installers that we deal with HAVE spares on hand for replacement. For DOA issues, they often have other jobs with the same equipment they can pull from that will be replaced from SolarEdge or Enphase before that other job comes up anyway.
On later failures, SolarEdge and Enphase will connect to the systems remotely to do any diagnostics before issuing a replacement.

[scarp]

I agree with you on the electronics failure issue. The more electronics you have, the more chance of failure. This is actually why I lean towards Solar Edge, in most instances. The optimizers have half as many components inside it as a microinverter, so in theory, should have fewer failures. Solar Edge's selling point is they are taking the best of both worlds, and giving you more flexibility in design than even micros give you. Solar Edge will allow up to 19 mods per string, which Enphase is usually limited at 16 mods. But, they do not put as many electronics on the roof as a micro would (Solar Edge is rated to 185 degrees Farenheit. Enphase is rated to 150 degrees Farenheit) Most of the electronics will be loacted in the Solar Edge inverter that will be mounted on a wall somewhere on the house. Also, Solar Edge gives you the ability to use multiple wattages of modules in the future if you add on to your system. As most installers know, modules are constantly increasing in wattage, and if your mods are more than 3 years old, you likely cannot get the same module, if you want to add on to a system, as it likely is obsolete. In addition, Solar Edge give better performance than Enphase in shading conditions. While I do like string inverters in certain applications, I think Solar Edge or Enphase offer some benefits that are very useful at getting better production out of a system.

[scarp]

Not true. We offer this to our customers within their warranty period. If it fails within the warranty period, and the customer needs it back up quickly, we have this procedure in place to take care of them. Now, obviously, if it comes back that the unit failed due to installation error, the customer will be charged on his account for the replacement. But, if it is covered under warranty, we will give the customer a replacement (if he is a customer in good standing with an open account), and we can ship the defective unit back to the manufacturer. When the replacement comes in, we put it into stock to replace the one we gave our customer. As one of the largest solar distributors in the U.S., we literally sell hundreds of thousands of Enphase micros each year nationwide, and probably about half again that number in Solar Edge optimizers. In the 5 years that I have been in the industry, I can count literally on one hand, the number of times I have had failures on Enphase M215's, or M250's, and honestly, I do not recall any issues on the Solar Edge. I know that Enphase had issues with the M190's, but that was quite some time ago. I am not sure about Solar Edge's past problems, as we have only stocked them for 3-4 years, but we are happy with their performance so far.

[ButchDeal]

That would just be doa units. Not early failures.

[scarp]

ButchDeal....We are a hands on distributor that have high volume customers that I handle directly. I am in constant comunication with them on a daily basis. At our location, we often handle issues with defective items, and directly contact the manufacturer for resolution. Since we stock both Enphase and Solar Edge, we can give our customer a new one the following day, and can get the installer off the roof, so that they do not have to wait for the warranty process to unfold. We pull one out of stock, and give it to our customer, and credit the customer back once the warranty credit has been approved.This is a value add we offer our customers to keep them happy, and to keep them doing what they should be doing....installing. Trust me, if my customers were having any significant issues with either manufacturer, I would know about it either by my daily phone call with them, or through an e-mail

[ButchDeal]

How do you know if there have been problems. As a distributor, you wouldn't see much of it. The installers would be calling enphase or SolarEdge directly under support, and they would send replacements directly. We have had some DOA of both and our distributors are not involved.

Further enphase as a poor battery design that is currently incapable of backing up any circuits which is the primary function most customers want.

[scarp]

I am a salesman for one of the largest solar distributors in the U.S. We rep both Enphase and Solar Edge, and in the last 5 years, I do not think we have had any issues with either brand. I will say that an All-In System with Enphase typically is slightly higher than Solar Edge, and that is due in large part to the price of trunk cables and other proprietary items needed for an Enphase system. Solar Edge does not require any special cabling. In addition, in theory, Enphase should have a higher failure rate long term, since they are putting more electronics under each module on the roof. Optimizers have way less electronics in them, so there will likely be less long term failure from heat while baking on a roof for 25 years.We sell a ton of both, so there are pros and cons with both. In my opinion, however, Solar Edge is better placed financially, and Enphase put themselves on shaky ground trying to expand into some international markets recently, and it may come back to bite them in a big way. Enphase has been losing ALOT of money lately, and Solar Edge continues to be profitable. Something to think about if you are looking at them from the bankability aspect.

[Naptown]

You are correct it is 125% of the maximum output or 80% of the OCPD.

[sensij]

Actually at 75% of the breaker in the panel.
The engage cable is rated at 20 Amps so a maximum output of the inverters can be no more than 16 amps.

I think you meant 80%, not 75% (16 / 20 = 0.8). And yeah, that is why I used the phrase "protected by", but it is good you clarified that for those who might not know.

[Naptown]

Yes, you can mix and match as you'd like. You just need to keep the total string rating less than what is protected by the PV breaker in your service panel.

Actually at 75% of the breaker in the panel.
The engage cable is rated at 20 Amps so a maximum output of the inverters can be no more than 16 amps.

[Deep_blue]

Very educational. Thank you.

[steel_3d]

Good info, tx!