San Francisco Bay area, 3.57kwh/6k, Is this a good deal or being taken for a ride ?

[sparkle]

Noob here.
I got a quote of $6k for 3.57kwh system. This system meets about 90% of my usage. This $6k is basically prepaid lease for 20 years for which they guarantee the output. Of course with this price they get to keep the fed rebates. I get to keep all the power I produce and do net-metering with PGE. If they fall short of produced capacity they will pay 0.07c/kwh (which is half the rate of lowest tier of PGE).
They will put some 250w panels and some inverter, however since they are guaranteeing the output , should I care ?
For first 5 years, if i were to break the lease, they will charge heafty amount (supposedly to offeset their depreciation) .

Is this a good price or it is meh deal around here ?

[sensij]

Do you mean 3.57 kW (not kWh)? 3.57 kW = 14 * 255 W panels. That is $1.68 / W, or would be $2.40 / W before tax credit. That sounds really low, so I would be looking for something in the contact that could get you.

[sparkle]

Do you mean 3.57 kW (not kWh)? 3.57 kW = 14 * 255 W panels. That is $1.68 / W, or would be $2.40 / W before tax credit. That sounds really low, so I would be looking for something in the contact that could get you.

thanks for correction. I am still learning solar lingo.
yes 3.57kW and 14 panels. I can try to get the exact contract but there is no per KWh based sale/purchase with them. I get to use all electricity or sell overage to PGE (at peltry 3 cents).
even though I pay 6k upfront (and no costs after that), it is considered a prepaid lease of 20 years. In first 5 years if I try to get out of lease, I would pay amount which diminishes for next 5 years (almost as much as 6 or 7 k, as they claim it is for tax depreciation). after 5 years there is no cost if I want to get out. but since they are going to take care of insurance and maintenance, i will probably keep the lease.
what should I be additionally looking for ? since there is no per kW sale/purchase and no other cost, what other ways they can get me ?
one way I could think of is, their panels grossly underproduce, and they just pay 7 cent shortfall for each kWh. any other way ?

[solar4me]

Noob here.
I got a quote of $6k for 3.57kwh system. This system meets about 90% of my usage. This $6k is basically prepaid lease for 20 years for which they guarantee the output. Of course with this price they get to keep the fed rebates. I get to keep all the power I produce and do net-metering with PGE. If they fall short of produced capacity they will pay 0.07c/kwh (which is half the rate of lowest tier of PGE).
They will put some 250w panels and some inverter, however since they are guaranteeing the output , should I care ?
For first 5 years, if i were to break the lease, they will charge heafty amount (supposedly to offeset their depreciation) .

Is this a good price or it is meh deal around here ?

I am also new and still learning..
$6K for 3.57KWh DC = $1.6/watt. That is low. Did they say they get the tax credit? I bet they do.

one of the quote I got was I paid for the entire system, I get the tax credit, and lease from them for 20 years (i.e. they cover all the maintenance and repaid for 20 yrs). So if you are truly getting $1.6/w and there is no other "find print" or hidden cost later, I would say that is a good deal.

[sparkle]

I am also new and still learning..
$6K for 3.57KWh DC = $1.6/watt. That is low. Did they say they get the tax credit? I bet they do.

one of the quote I got was I paid for the entire system, I get the tax credit, and lease from them for 20 years (i.e. they cover all the maintenance and repaid for 20 yrs). So if you are truly getting $1.6/w and there is no other "find print" or hidden cost later, I would say that is a good deal.

this one is a prepaid lease. so i lease the system for 20 years but prepay whole amount which is 6K. and of course they get to keep the tax credit. this price is net out of pocket for me. couldn't find any obvious fine print. one plus for me is they are going to maintain the system for 20 years. i think practically that means they will change the inverter after 12 years when it goes out.

[SunEagle]

this one is a prepaid lease. so i lease the system for 20 years but prepay whole amount which is 6K. and of course they get to keep the tax credit. this price is net out of pocket for me. couldn't find any obvious fine print. one plus for me is they are going to maintain the system for 20 years. i think practically that means they will change the inverter after 12 years when it goes out.

For my clarity. You are saying you only pay $6000 which covers a 20 year lease. So that comes to about $25/month that you pay for the lease.

Does that $25/month cover all or part of the electricity that you use each month?

What is the estimated monthly savings going with this lease?

[solardavid]

Beware of Leases -- Ownership is a better option - Compare your cost to a loan

Noob here.
I got a quote of $6k for 3.57kwh system. This system meets about 90% of my usage. This $6k is basically prepaid lease for 20 years for which they guarantee the output. Of course with this price they get to keep the fed rebates. I get to keep all the power I produce and do net-metering with PGE. If they fall short of produced capacity they will pay 0.07c/kwh (which is half the rate of lowest tier of PGE).
They will put some 250w panels and some inverter, however since they are guaranteeing the output , should I care ?
For first 5 years, if i were to break the lease, they will charge heafty amount (supposedly to offeset their depreciation) .

Is this a good price or it is meh deal around here ?

I know when I compare the life cycle costs of leases vs ownership -- ownership is the preferred option. Can you use the federal tax credits? Let's say you buy it outright at $3.50/W - which is possible with a centralized inverter and the install is straight forward --- minus tax credit -- brings the cost to $9,187. --- you are ready to pay $6000 deposit ... borrow the balance from the bank or from PACE -- I would think you have a positive cash flow from day one and you lifetime cost savings will be very favorable. The issue about a firm doing the maintenance and having ownership is just not an issue any more -- get a good solar company and use good panels and that combination seems to be bullet proof.

[sparkle]

@SunEagle, yes that is correct. $25 covers over 90% of my usage. My average current cost per month is about $80. i did some numbers on spreadsheet and it looked like I will recover my initial cost between 5-6 years. after that any electricity produced is free.

@solardavid , since I am new at this, not sure i understand you fully, so please bear with me. if I can get exact same amount of electricity in 20 years for $6000 , why would I want to buy panels at more price ? if I buy outright, I get to keep the panels after 20 years but for that option i am paying $3187. don't think panels would be worth that much after 20 years. also from what I read, inverter will probably go out in 12-13 years. if i buy I will be paying conservatively ~$1k for that too. so total additional cost of ownership would be $4k+. is there some other number I am missing to include in my calculations ?

[solar4me]

@SunEagle, yes that is correct. $25 covers over 90% of my usage. My average current cost per month is about $80. i did some numbers on spreadsheet and it looked like I will recover my initial cost between 5-6 years. after that any electricity produced is free.

@solardavid , since I am new at this, not sure i understand you fully, so please bear with me. if I can get exact same amount of electricity in 20 years for $6000 , why would I want to buy panels at more price ? if I buy outright, I get to keep the panels after 20 years but for that option i am paying $3187. don't think panels would be worth that much after 20 years. also from what I read, inverter will probably go out in 12-13 years. if i buy I will be paying conservatively ~$1k for that too. so total additional cost of ownership would be $4k+. is there some other number I am missing to include in my calculations ?

Below are prices of a some Solar Kit packages very close to your system available online you can buy (before tax credit, not including shipping, and NOT installed) :
3.42kWh DC : $7400 = $2.16/w (12 x SolarWorld 250 Mono+ Enphase M250)
3.78kWh DC : $7400 = $1.96/w (12 x SolarWorld 315 Mono+ SolarEdge SE3800)
3.60kWh DC : $9150 = $2.54/w (12 x LG 300w systems)
4.08kWh DC : $7890 = $1.93/w (16 x Q Cells 255 + SunnyBoy 4000)
3.75kWh DC : $7412 = $1.98/w (15 x SolarWorld 250 + SolarEdge SE5000)
3.72kWh DC : $7041 = $1.89/w (12 x SolarWorld 310 + SolarEdge SE5000)
3.42kWh DC : $7785 = $2.28/w (12 x SolarWorld 285 + SolarEdge SE5000)
3.78kWh DC : $7281 = $1.93/w (12 x SolarWorld 315 + SolarEdge SE5000)
3.00kWh DC : $5836 = $1.95/w (12 x SolarWorld 250 + SunnyBoy 3000)
3.42kWh DC : $7336 = $2.15/w (12 x SolarWorld 285 + SunnyBoy 3000)

considering your system before tax credit is $2.40/w (3.57 kW = 14 * 255 W panels).
Your system is $1.6/w (after tax credit and the installer kept the tax credit).

Looks like you may have a very good deal. Don't forget to read (and re-read) all the contract and fine print.

[solarix]

A $6000 deal for a 3.57kW system installed is definitely in the too good to be true range. Is this with a well known leasing company? Prepaid leases generally have a hard time being cost effective but can be the best option for people that can't make use of the solar tax credit.

[sparkle]

A $6000 deal for a 3.57kW system installed is definitely in the too good to be true range. Is this with a well known leasing company? Prepaid leases generally have a hard time being cost effective but can be the best option for people that can't make use of the solar tax credit.

it is for a company which has 3.5 reviews on yelp. most current ones are positive and so far my experience has been positive too. from what i have read, they are actually a financing company and subcontracting to another company. the sales guy told me they have a special pricing until end of the month (maybe trying to meet monthly sales quota ???) . If anyone is interested in details, PM me.

[sparkle]

Below are prices of a some Solar Kit packages very close to your system available online you can buy (before tax credit, not including shipping, and NOT installed) :
3.42kWh DC : $7400 = $2.16/w (12 x SolarWorld 250 Mono+ Enphase M250)
3.78kWh DC : $7400 = $1.96/w (12 x SolarWorld 315 Mono+ SolarEdge SE3800)
3.60kWh DC : $9150 = $2.54/w (12 x LG 300w systems)
4.08kWh DC : $7890 = $1.93/w (16 x Q Cells 255 + SunnyBoy 4000)
3.75kWh DC : $7412 = $1.98/w (15 x SolarWorld 250 + SolarEdge SE5000)
3.72kWh DC : $7041 = $1.89/w (12 x SolarWorld 310 + SolarEdge SE5000)
3.42kWh DC : $7785 = $2.28/w (12 x SolarWorld 285 + SolarEdge SE5000)
3.78kWh DC : $7281 = $1.93/w (12 x SolarWorld 315 + SolarEdge SE5000)
3.00kWh DC : $5836 = $1.95/w (12 x SolarWorld 250 + SunnyBoy 3000)
3.42kWh DC : $7336 = $2.15/w (12 x SolarWorld 285 + SunnyBoy 3000)

considering your system before tax credit is $2.40/w (3.57 kW = 14 * 255 W panels).
Your system is $1.6/w (after tax credit and the installer kept the tax credit).

Looks like you may have a very good deal. Don't forget to read (and re-read) all the contract and fine print.

my system is going to use Trina panels (black over black) with a ABB inverter. No optimizer. From my limited research these are not top of the line components but probably not bottom of barrel either.
i went though contract line by line. and couldn't find anything obvious other than that if I cancel my lease in first 5 years I will have to pay heavy penalty (about $9k).
also i am not sure if there is anything in contract which should be there and is missing.

[SunEagle]

my system is going to use Trina panels (black over black) with a ABB inverter. No optimizer. From my limited research these are not top of the line components but probably not bottom of barrel either.
i went though contract line by line. and couldn't find anything obvious other than that if I cancel my lease in first 5 years I will have to pay heavy penalty (about $9k).
also i am not sure if there is anything in contract which should be there and is missing.

My two concerns would be;

What if the system did not perform as expected and only cover 50% or less of what you use instead of the 90% they claim it will.

Is there anyway that some type of increase or fee be added to your monthly lease bill associated with the increase in rates by your POCO?

Most leases have some type of "production" guarantee but also have a yearly increase due to electric "rates" changing.

Other than that it sounds like you found a gem of a system at a cost most people would be crazy to walk away from. I hope it works out for you.

[donald]

A solar lease is a liability for home resale.

[sensij]

M
What if the system did not perform as expected and only cover 50% or less of what you use instead of the 90% they claim it will.

A 3.57 kW system will easily cover a $80 / mo bill. They'd have to install garbage on the roof to miss that goal. I know it is unlikely, and the OP suggested something similar, but could they actually install bad panels that produce no power at all, and simply pay the $0.07 / kWH rate for underproduction? The price here is low enough that I'd be at least a little worried about a scam like that, in a world where people sell empty boxes on Ebay and get away with it because the description was sufficiently vague.

A solar lease is a liability for home resale.

How is a fully pre-paid lease a liability? Edit... does the contract say anything about transferrability?

Once you get a copy of the contract, if you scan and post it maybe you will get some better feedback instead of people just imagining what could go wrong.