Considerations for panels on old / new patio cover in San Diego area

[Living Large]

edit: Change "why type daddy" to "why daddy type".

My error. Brain flatulence.

Ah, you saw what confused me. daddy-type. The way it was written, I was thinking of the scene from "Airplane!" with the jive talking. And I was pretty confident you were not jive talking

[J.P.M.]

Ah, you saw what confused me. daddy-type. The way it was written, I was thinking of the scene from "Airplane!" with the jive talking. And I was pretty confident you were not jive talking

Understood. I apologize for not doing a good job of proofreading.

[DanKegel]

Understood. I apologize for not doing a good job of proofreading.

Likewise - I didn't mean to imply JPM thought the bifacial manufacturers' claims were realistic.

[Living Large]

Understood. I apologize for not doing a good job of proofreading.

No need to apologize. I was amused, but I knew you had a serious message - so it was like a cipher that I could not decode.

[mungosocal]

I'm not sure why you'd think aesthetics is not a big deal. If you're spending that much money to build a patio cover and install solar, making it look nice is as important as other aspects. After-all it's part of your house. If you don't like the color of your roof, is it old enough that you want to change it in the near future? If so, doing it now with your solar will allow you to claim more tax credits. Personally I think installing solar on patio cover is not a good idea. Because of the height and load (and wind) bearing, you probably also need permit to build the patio cover which is not going to be cheap. Have you talked to any reputable installer to see if they can give you any advice WRT your idea?

I do want to replace the roof but I am stuck on the idea of premature replacement and having a hard time getting over it. I haven't talked to a reputable installer yet, and any referrals via pm would be appreciated. I did observe that the larger patio cover on my south side is completely shade free by 8 am today and expect it to remain as such till dusk. That was surprising to me -- funny how little we pay attention to these things until we have a reason to. I posted a photo of the patio a bit earlier - perhaps I should dig up one of the satellite photos that seem popular.

Responding to another question, I already insulated the attic, replaced the windows and doors, replaced the hvac, swapped in LEDs in the most used lights, added solar hot water. It was all done a bit ad hoc as money become available over the last ten years, not much of a master plan. Would have made some other choices if I could do it over again.

[mungosocal]

I spoke to the contractor who built my patio cover and learned that it wasn't built to handle additional load beyond what is up there. So I guess that leaves me with a decision to put panels on my old roof (and know that re-roofing at a time of my choosing will be more expensive), invest in something else, or re-roof and then install the panels. My contractor -- a general contractor who has no stake in what I do -- encouraged me to consider installing on the old roof.

Having read up on the future of net metering, I'm definitely feeling the tug towards doing something by the end of the year. I have the cash, but if I had to do the roof I would have to look at financing which I'd prefer to avoid.

Another factor that makes me want to put off the roof is that I currently have a solar hot water heater up there. It wasn't worth the investment I made -- shame on me -- but it really won't be worth the investment if I pay someone to take it down to re-roof and re-install, versus re-roofing at the end of its service life.

My contractor referred me to Baker Electric if I wanted to talk to a pro, and hopefully accelerate my learning on the subject. Will gratefully accept any other referrals from the San Diego crowd.

[SunEagle]

I spoke to the contractor who built my patio cover and learned that it wasn't built to handle additional load beyond what is up there. So I guess that leaves me with a decision to put panels on my old roof (and know that re-roofing at a time of my choosing will be more expensive), invest in something else, or re-roof and then install the panels. My contractor -- a general contractor who has no stake in what I do -- encouraged me to consider installing on the old roof.

Having read up on the future of net metering, I'm definitely feeling the tug towards doing something by the end of the year. I have the cash, but if I had to do the roof I would have to look at financing which I'd prefer to avoid.

Another factor that makes me want to put off the roof is that I currently have a solar hot water heater up there. It wasn't worth the investment I made -- shame on me -- but it really won't be worth the investment if I pay someone to take it down to re-roof and re-install, versus re-roofing at the end of its service life.

My contractor referred me to Baker Electric if I wanted to talk to a pro, and hopefully accelerate my learning on the subject. Will gratefully accept any other referrals from the San Diego crowd.

It cost me about $800 to have my solar water heater panel removed by the original contractor so I could put on a new shingle roof.

The good part about it was that the shingle salesman paid half of the $800 and the solar contractor replaced a high temp faulty relief valve for free in the process.

[thejq]

I do want to replace the roof but I am stuck on the idea of premature replacement and having a hard time getting over it. I haven't talked to a reputable installer yet, and any referrals via pm would be appreciated.

Sometimes, the toughest choice is the right choice. I'm not necessarily advocating changing your roof at this time. But it's best to get some expert opinion from installers to see if it's even a viable option before spending too much time. Check your PM for some pointers. GL.

[mungosocal]

My tenth message so I can reply to PMs. Thanks!

[sabersix]

My contractor referred me to Baker Electric if I wanted to talk to a pro, and hopefully accelerate my learning on the subject. Will gratefully accept any other referrals from the San Diego crowd.

Baker was one of the contractors I looked at. I'll PM you with the one I went with. I'm in Rancho Penasquitos.

[mungosocal]

Chatted with Vince today based on referrals. I am coming around to possibly replacing half the roof and putting all the panels there. Starting to look at financing options as well.

[DanKegel]

Probably on the west side, right? That would match late-afternoon A/C usage, even if it might not give as much total energy per panel as putting them on your south patio cover might have.

[mungosocal]

The whole back of my house faces west without any obstructions, and that is what we discussed as an initial hypothesis. Vince noted that depending on the variables of my site, which he would assess and I will get up to speed on, west orientation could be an overall better option. I could stomach replacing that part of the roof perhaps since nobody could tell that the front and back have different shingles (I would be choosing a different shingle style) and it lets me leave my solar hot water heater alone for a few years and reduce the investment loss I suffered on its installation. All the roof complexities are on the front of the house so am hoping this could be done at modest additional expense. I will have to get bids from some independent roofers on stripping the back of the house and re roofing, and tieing it into the existing two layers at the ridge line. At first glance this seems doable and it is my understanding that folks do this kind of thing coupled with a solar install (though perhaps not using a distinct shingle style and color).

For the recent HELOC folks, I recall that an appraisal wasn't needed ten years ago and generally one could open a HELOC at zero cost. I assess myself at about 65 percent LTV, but will I likely need to pay for an appraisal to prove this?

[Willaby]

Reading most of the comments, here's mine:

1) I wouldn't be concerned with shingling half the roof. I did this as a diy for a rental whereby the 180 degree south side needed it bad, but the north side lasted 10 years longer. No one noticed and the big box retailer sold the same exact shingles when I needed to do the north side last year.

2) If you do re-roof for the purpose of solar, you should be able to include that part for the Fed tax credit. Verify that for yourself.

3) By coincidence I recently looked at mounting panels on a flat patio structure. I ran them through PV Watts at 0 degrees and I recall they still showed something like 85-90% annual output. I was surprised. I thought it would be something like 70% (maybe it is in the winter?). Note also that if you tilt the panels on a flat roof, you will need to space them fairly far apart so as not to shade each other in the winter. Flat might be better kwh density besides looking better. You'd need to clean them frequently though.

4) I think free standing structures are easier to permit for solar diy. Not that roof permits are hard, just that there are setback rules, vents, roof penetrations, your solar water heater, etc that cause difficulty. I just read the fire regs and there are no fire dept rules that apply to non-habitable structures. If you want a new patio anyway, could be worth it.

just my 4c,

[J.P.M.]

Reading most of the comments, here's mine:

1) I wouldn't be concerned with shingling half the roof. I did this as a diy for a rental whereby the 180 degree south side needed it bad, but the north side lasted 10 years longer. No one noticed and the big box retailer sold the same exact shingles when I needed to do the north side last year.

2) If you do re-roof for the purpose of solar, you should be able to include that part for the Fed tax credit. Verify that for yourself.

3) By coincidence I recently looked at mounting panels on a flat patio structure. I ran them through PV Watts at 0 degrees and I recall they still showed something like 85-90% annual output. I was surprised. I thought it would be something like 70% (maybe it is in the winter?). Note also that if you tilt the panels on a flat roof, you will need to space them fairly far apart so as not to shade each other in the winter. Flat might be better kwh density besides looking better. You'd need to clean them frequently though.

4) I think free standing structures are easier to permit for solar diy. Not that roof permits are hard, just that there are setback rules, vents, roof penetrations, your solar water heater, etc that cause difficulty. I just read the fire regs and there are no fire dept rules that apply to non-habitable structures. If you want a new patio anyway, could be worth it.

just my 4c,

The fly in the horizontal panel ointment mentioned of panel fouling is important. Horizontal panels will get dirtier faster and stay that way, the dirt tending to stay in place and/or cake up over time and get worse as rainfall cleaning is not very effective on horizontal surfaces with a perimeter lip, or most any lip for that matter. (Aside - maybe some day panels will have vanishing edges like fancy pools and that brown layer at the bottom 8"-12" of panels will be minimized or eliminated.)

Tilted panels tend to stay cleaner w/out mechanical cleaning ( but still needed some cleaning depending on location, rainfall amt., time between rainfall, etc. I suspect, but don't have enough data yet to suggest that, depending on location, tilt and maybe some other things, panel fouling of tilted arrays reaches some asymptotic value as f(time, rainfall, location, tilt, etc.).

Fouling aside, the closer an array is to the equator, the less penalty for horizontal orientation and vice versa. 1st cut ideal for best annual production is tilted at about local latitude facing mostly south. Around So. CA, the penalty for horizontal orientation is much less than in say, Helena, MT.