Sun Power Vs. Kyocera, Lease Vs. Buy

[drmtesta]

Hi all,
This is my first post and have had just one consult so far. Three more planned this week. We have a 2300 sqft home in SoCal where it's hot most of the year. Our bill is about $450.00 per month (1,444 kwh) and we have an old single speed pool pump, and old AC unit. We having an whole house fan put in this week and I'll probably replace the pool pump as well. AC may have to wait.

I had a few questions so please jump in if you are able:
1. The company we talked to suggested Sun Power rather than Kyocera. The panels are supposed to produce much more. Are they worthwhile. The difference in purchase price is about $15K to go with the Sun Power panels. What is a right cost per kwh for Sun Power. . .right now we were proposed $4.11 kwh installed and $.15 per kw for 20 years.

2. Thoughts on lease vs purchase? I know the lease is more expensive over time and there is a bunch of financing options out there. Has anyone used HERO?

3. Here in SoCal, they are going to change the Net Metering rates and we've been told that the date is June 2015. Spoke to SDGE today and they said 7/21/2017. Scare tactic?

Thanks in advance!!
DRM

[solar pete]

Hi all,
This is my first post and have had just one consult so far. Three more planned this week. We have a 2300 sqft home in SoCal where it's hot most of the year. Our bill is about $450.00 per month (1,444 kwh) and we have an old single speed pool pump, and old AC unit. We having an whole house fan put in this week and I'll probably replace the pool pump as well. AC may have to wait.

I had a few questions so please jump in if you are able:
1. The company we talked to suggested Sun Power rather than Kyocera. The panels are supposed to produce much more. Are they worthwhile. The difference in purchase price is about $15K to go with the Sun Power panels. What is a right cost per kwh for Sun Power. . .right now we were proposed $4.11 kwh installed and $.15 per kw for 20 years.

2. Thoughts on lease vs purchase? I know the lease is more expensive over time and there is a bunch of financing options out there. Has anyone used HERO?

3. Here in SoCal, they are going to change the Net Metering rates and we've been told that the date is June 2015. Spoke to SDGE today and they said 7/21/2017. Scare tactic?


Thanks in advance!!

DRM

Howdy drmtesta and welcome to Solar Panel Talk,

This topic has been discussed many times so if you search the forum you should find a few threads that deal with Buy versus Lease. Re the panels personally I think the SP panels are too much money, BUT it supports local jobs so opinions vary on this one. There should be a few SoCal people around to chime in at some stage. Read up and ask questions and you should end up with a good result, good luck, have fun,cheers.

[Sunking]

Kyocera is a better product, and SP is more expensive.

[thejq]

1444KWh/mon or 48.13KWh/day is a lot of energy for a 2300 sft house. If you are going to make your house more energy efficient, why don't you finish that and see for a few months what the reduced consumption is like. Otherwise, you could oversize your solar system and waste money. Most people here will tell you Sunpower is not worth it.

I'm not sure what you mean by "we were proposed $4.11 kwh installed and $.15 per kw for 20 years". Do you mean $4.11/W installed which calculates to $0.15 / KWh over 20 years? If so, and it's for Sunpower, it sounds reasonable.

As for SDG&E net metering, it's not running out any time soon, so don't worry about it.

[Optimum7]

Hi all,
This is my first post and have had just one consult so far. Three more planned this week. We have a 2300 sqft home in SoCal where it's hot most of the year. Our bill is about $450.00 per month (1,444 kwh) and we have an old single speed pool pump, and old AC unit. We having an whole house fan put in this week and I'll probably replace the pool pump as well. AC may have to wait.

I had a few questions so please jump in if you are able:
1. The company we talked to suggested Sun Power rather than Kyocera. The panels are supposed to produce much more. Are they worthwhile. The difference in purchase price is about $15K to go with the Sun Power panels. What is a right cost per kwh for Sun Power. . .right now we were proposed $4.11 kwh installed and $.15 per kw for 20 years.

2. Thoughts on lease vs purchase? I know the lease is more expensive over time and there is a bunch of financing options out there. Has anyone used HERO?

3. Here in SoCal, they are going to change the Net Metering rates and we've been told that the date is June 2015. Spoke to SDGE today and they said 7/21/2017. Scare tactic?

Thanks in advance!!
DRM

I am kind of new here but learned quickly that looking into all energy savings possibilities should be the 1st step. ( that old Air Conditioner, lights, etc )

[drmtesta]

Kyocera is a better product, and SP is more expensive.

The sales guy said the SP produce about 30% solar energy. The Kyocera system is much cheaper but I think I'll need more panels to get an equal production.
Thanks

[drmtesta]

1444KWh/mon or 48.13KWh/day is a lot of energy for a 2300 sft house. If you are going to make your house more energy efficient, why don't you finish that and see for a few months what the reduced consumption is like. Otherwise, you could oversize your solar system and waste money. Most people here will tell you Sunpower is not worth it.

I'm not sure what you mean by "we were proposed $4.11 kwh installed and $.15 per kw for 20 years". Do you mean $4.11/W installed which calculates to $0.15 / KWh over 20 years? If so, and it's for Sunpower, it sounds reasonable.

As for SDG&E net metering, it's not running out any time soon, so don't worry about it.

You have it exactly right. . .installed price. It really seems like the solar companies are using net metering as a scare tactic.
Thanks

[J.P.M.]

It's a free country, but:

1.) Do not think about solar until you get an energy audit and deduce your use. Any resulting system will be smaller and cheaper as a result. After that get more quotes.

2.) Are you buying, leasing, PPA or what ? Some, myself included, think leases are a rip off, but opinions vary. They have the bogus attraction of no money up front. Sort of like renting furniture and paying more for it in the long run. Hero avoids the lease trap and is better than a lot of financing methods, but, again, walk in with your eyes open and know that while viable, the fine print , fees, etc., take some of the bloom off the lily (like a possible "service fee" of ~ 5-6% of the loan amount up front). READ EVERYTHING 2x. How about a HELOC ?

3.) Disabuse yourself of what you may have been told about "efficiency", OR SOLAR ENERGY IN GENERAL. Buy a book about residential solar energy, or download one for free from the net, but get informed. It is your best and right defense against the screwing your solar ignorance is setting you up for.

4.) Any well designed system of a certain size, in the same location, orientation and service will produce about the same annual output, regardless of panel type. Sunpower is good stuff for which you pay about 20%+ more upfront. Bottom line: equal (electrical) size Sunpower and Kyocera systems, or most any reputable product for that matter, installed by a reputable vendor, will produce about the same annual output. One costs a lot more, as you've found out, and MAY have a slightly better warranty (that is probably overkill if it's better in a practical sense at all).

5.) Rates are indeed going to change in CA. No one knows for sure, but the smart money says large users such as you will actuall see their rates and bills go DOWN - yes DOWN as a result.

[Sunking]

The sales guy said the SP produce about 30% solar energy.

Your salesman is telling you half truths. SP panels DO NOT produce 30% more energy for a given area. They produce roughly 10% more for a given area. It does not take more panels if you used Kyocera panels. It just a little larger area. A 250 watt panel is a 250 watt panel no matter who makes it. What is different is a SP 250 watt panel is roughly 8 to 10% smaller in physical size.

So if your roof or wherever you install them has the room, then the only difference is SP is more expensive and lower quality than Kyocera. Your salesman interest lies with his comission on the sale. He and his company make more money off you selling you SP panels.

[drmtesta]

It's a free country, but:

1.) Do not think about solar until you get an energy audit and deduce your use. Any resulting system will be smaller and cheaper as a result. After that get more quotes.

2.) Are you buying, leasing, PPA or what ? Some, myself included, think leases are a rip off, but opinions vary. They have the bogus attraction of no money up front. Sort of like renting furniture and paying more for it in the long run. Hero avoids the lease trap and is better than a lot of financing methods, but, again, walk in with your eyes open and know that while viable, the fine print , fees, etc., take some of the bloom off the lily (like a possible "service fee" of ~ 5-6% of the loan amount up front). READ EVERYTHING 2x. How about a HELOC ?

3.) Disabuse yourself of what you may have been told about "efficiency", OR SOLAR ENERGY IN GENERAL. Buy a book about residential solar energy, or download one for free from the net, but get informed. It is your best and right defense against the screwing your solar ignorance is setting you up for.

4.) Any well designed system of a certain size, in the same location, orientation and service will produce about the same annual output, regardless of panel type. Sunpower is good stuff for which you pay about 20%+ more upfront. Bottom line: equal (electrical) size Sunpower and Kyocera systems, or most any reputable product for that matter, installed by a reputable vendor, will produce about the same annual output. One costs a lot more, as you've found out, and MAY have a slightly better warranty (that is probably overkill if it's better in a practical sense at all).

5.) Rates are indeed going to change in CA. No one knows for sure, but the smart money says large users such as you will actuall see their rates and bills go DOWN - yes DOWN as a result.

Good information, thanks. Just reading Solar for Dummies. Our energy audit is on Thursday. It sounds like there is time to see the impact of a new whole house fan, pool pump and maybe LED lights before making the plunge. I'll keep reading!

[drmtesta]

Your salesman is telling you half truths. SP panels DO NOT produce 30% more energy for a given area. They produce roughly 10% more for a given area. It does not take more panels if you used Kyocera panels. It just a little larger area. A 250 watt panel is a 250 watt panel no matter who makes it. What is different is a SP 250 watt panel is roughly 8 to 10% smaller in physical size.

So if your roof or wherever you install them has the room, then the only difference is SP is more expensive and lower quality than Kyocera. Your salesman interest lies with his comission on the sale. He and his company make more money off you selling you SP panels.

I think what he said was the Kyoceras were 250, but the SPs were about 330. Is it possible they produce more wattage? They are Sun Power SPR-327NE-WHT-D panels and 2 SMA America SB5000TL-US (240V) inverters. Sound right?

[HX_Guy]

Your salesman is telling you half truths. SP panels DO NOT produce 30% more energy for a given area. They produce roughly 10% more for a given area. It does not take more panels if you used Kyocera panels. It just a little larger area. A 250 watt panel is a 250 watt panel no matter who makes it. What is different is a SP 250 watt panel is roughly 8 to 10% smaller in physical size.

So if your roof or wherever you install them has the room, then the only difference is SP is more expensive and lower quality than Kyocera. Your salesman interest lies with his comission on the sale. He and his company make more money off you selling you SP panels.

Maybe I'm not reading that right but what you're saying is not accurate.

A SunPower panel WILL produce more given the same roof space/amount of panels.

For example, a SunPower E20-327 is 61" x 41" and has a rating of 327W. A competitor panel in roughly the same size (65" x 39" is a pretty standard panel size) will typically only do 250W - 275W or so. So if you have say 170 Sq Ft of roof space to work with, you could fit 10 SP panels, or 3,270W.
With a different panel, it would still be 10 panels but now it's only 2,500W - 2,750W. And to reach the same 3,270W, you'd need 12-13 panels of the competitor.

So yes, SunPower packs more power into a smaller footprint. But that's really only an advantage if you are limited on space. If you have the space there really isn't an advantage because SP so overpriced in a way that's its actually cheaper to buy more of the competitor panels vs buying the SP panels.

[Ian S]

SP is more expensive and lower quality than Kyocera.

I seriously doubt you can back up the extraordinary claim that SunPower is lower quality than Kyocera.

[drmtesta]

Maybe I'm not reading that right but what you're saying is not accurate.

A SunPower panel WILL produce more given the same roof space/amount of panels.

For example, a SunPower E20-327 is 61" x 41" and has a rating of 327W. A competitor panel in roughly the same size (65" x 39" is a pretty standard panel size) will typically only do 250W - 275W or so. So if you have say 170 Sq Ft of roof space to work with, you could fit 10 SP panels, or 3,270W.
With a different panel, it would still be 10 panels but now it's only 2,500W - 2,750W. And to reach the same 3,270W, you'd need 12-13 panels of the competitor.

So yes, SunPower packs more power into a smaller footprint. But that's really only an advantage if you are limited on space. If you have the space there really isn't an advantage because SP so overpriced in a way that's its actually cheaper to buy more of the competitor panels vs buying the SP panels.

Thanks. . .that makes sense.

[J.P.M.]

Good information, thanks. Just reading Solar for Dummies. Our energy audit is on Thursday. It sounds like there is time to see the impact of a new whole house fan, pool pump and maybe LED lights before making the plunge. I'll keep reading!

Spend most of your time on the chapters at the beginning dealing with conservation and load reduction.