TOU for SCE in Southern California analysis

[insaneoctane]

... but did you care about this issue until you discovered it ? It's always been there.

As typical with my quick replies, I am not sure I successfully made my point. I am not irritated by any accuracy issues, but rather the loss of information. Once I added energy generation to the picture I lost the ability for the PUC to Measure my actual consumption. Thats all. The PUC used to be able to send me a bill and I could use that to evaluate both my consumption and the cost. Now they only tell me what they provide me, which is no longer my consumption. The best example of this is this month's bill is about - $130 but the bill can't tell me the whole story anymore... if that's due to heavy production or decreased consumption? Because my true consumption is missing from the bill. Because I have my TED5000, I am able to figure this out luckily. My usage over the last two months has been at an all time low as compared to the last 8 years. I am glad I have the equipment to know this, but my bill can no longer tell me this.

[russ]

In this case, the utility meter, right or wrong is the standard.

And by definition - the revenue meter is correct.

All sorts of measurements are fun to watch but often meaningless. Recently I was on the Inca Trail going through Machu Pichu - from time to time I would check the elevation on an app on my tablet - did it make any difference? Nope the work required was the same!

[J.P.M.]

I j just got my bill and I will post details later, but it's a very nice credit and it looks as if they did process the entire month as TOU-D-A which is great. The one thing I am realizing as I read this bill (this is also true for non - TOU) is that I have no idea how people can stand only having the data that the PUC provide! They don't show my real usage, rather only the net usage that they have seen... It kind of drives me crazy that their version of usage is only what they see, I need to see my actual usage to make any sense out of my bill. Actual generation and actual consumption are very important to me to understand what is going on in my house. Thank goodness for my TED5000. I am very pleased with my decision to install that from day one. Granted, I am a data head, but everyone ought to at least know real usage and Gen...

They only need to provide justification for what they sell you.

As for people standing for it : it's easy to tolerate something you don't know or care about. Not being a complete butt hole about it, but did you care about this issue until you discovered it ? It's always been there.

More of the welcome to POCO rate and tariff hell.

Part of the problem is what we think we are generating. Get ready for the idea that most solar vendor or 3d party monitoring is probably not as accurate as revenue grade meters provide. My guess is my stuff runs about 2.5% or so optimistic compared to reality, and that bounces around some.

Imagine what would happen if the POCO, in addition to what they bill you for, showed what they believe you generated according to the correct tariff, etc. Your monitor would probably show you generated more (or less) than they think you generated. But, as a practical matter, their equipment is probably much more accurate than yours/mine, and anyway, their meter is the one calling the shots and therefore, de facto, accurate by default/definition until proven otherwise.

Most vendor installed monitoring is OK for the intended purpose of general monitoring and feel good stuff for geeks like me and some others, but I'd not put a whole lot of faith in the accuracy or precision in it vs. a revenue grade device.

This might be the next big revelation coming down the road when the dirty little secret of monitoring accuracy (or actually the lack of it) sees the light of day.

Like Mike, or Inetdog (??) wrote, the person with 2 watches never knows the correct time. In this case, the utility meter, right or wrong is the standard.

[bcroe]

Actual Usage

The one thing I am realizing as I read this bill (this is also true for non - TOU) is that I have no idea how people can stand only having the data that the PUC provide! They don't show my real usage, rather only the net usage that they have seen... It kind of drives me crazy that their version of usage is only what they see, I need to see my actual usage to make any sense out of my bill. Actual generation and actual consumption are very important to me to understand what is going on in my house.

Here the bill shows energy exported and imported, and the difference which is my reserve
build up or depletion. Since my inverters list the energy generated over the interval, actual
energy use is just one more subtraction. Bruce Roe

[insaneoctane]

I j just got my bill and I will post details later, but it's a very nice credit and it looks as if they did process the entire month as TOU-D-A which is great. The one thing I am realizing as I read this bill (this is also true for non - TOU) is that I have no idea how people can stand only having the data that the PUC provide! They don't show my real usage, rather only the net usage that they have seen... It kind of drives me crazy that their version of usage is only what they see, I need to see my actual usage to make any sense out of my bill. Actual generation and actual consumption are very important to me to understand what is going on in my house. Thank goodness for my TED5000. I am very pleased with my decision to install that from day one. Granted, I am a data head, but everyone ought to at least know real usage and Gen...

[silversaver]

I didn't pick up on that at first....
But quite a powerful example of TOU leverage....Your NET cum is 395kWh, yet you have a NET cum -$131. Way to use TOU! I'm wondering if in hindsight, maybe your system is too big with this schedule? Or, will you use this credit up in Winter?

My solar isn't too big, it is 7.1kW system. My usage pattern is from later afternoon all the way to next morning with 2 EVs. My Summer/Winter usage were very high and I'm trying to bank credit from Feb to Jun. If under standard tier, I might have to pay POCO about 2000 to 2500 kWh per year.

[insaneoctane]

What I really want to point out is: I have cumulative energy charge year-to-date -$131.53, but my cumulative kWh year-to-date 395kWh

I consume 395kWh from POCO, but still with -$131 of credit on account by switch to TOU-D-A for single month.

I didn't pick up on that at first....
But quite a powerful example of TOU leverage....Your NET cum is 395kWh, yet you have a NET cum -$131. Way to use TOU! I'm wondering if in hindsight, maybe your system is too big with this schedule? Or, will you use this credit up in Winter?

[MikeInRialto]

I don't have a programable thermastat yet, so last summer I would turn the AC on for an hour before I left for work. The house would stay cool until about 5pm, I'd turn it on for an hour and would be good for another couple of hours. This would help keep out of peek hours.

I...in a side note solar permit plans are being submitted this week or early next week.

[silversaver]

What I really want to point out is: I have cumulative energy charge year-to-date -$131.53, but my cumulative kWh year-to-date 395kWh

I consume 395kWh from POCO, but still with -$131 of credit on account by switch to TOU-D-A for single month.

If you turn on the ACs during those peak hours, it will be the other way around..... it would really hurts....

[insaneoctane]

We had about the same surplus, but TOU-D-A gave me a few more credit towards the account. Bringing me from positive to negative account balance toward Summer/Winter usage.

Looks great!
I am waiting on my first TOU-D-A bill to post on 18th. Unfortunately they did not change my account over to TOU-D-A untilaabout halfway tthrough the billing cycle, but partial is better than none. With being gone for spring break and impressive production recently, I feel like even with the partial plan I will put a significant dent towards what I currently "owe" SCE due to abysmal performance in December and January... Stay tuned...

[Alisobob]

We had about the same surplus, but TOU-D-A gave me a few more credit towards the account. Bringing me from positive to negative account balance toward Summer/Winter usage.

Sweet!!!

[silversaver]

Heres my first TOU-D-T statement, and how it all shook out. I also included 3 snapshots , Total use, Peak, and Off Peak.

Hope it sheds some light on how you can save money, combining solar generation, with TOU billing.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]6332[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]6333[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]6334[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]6335[/ATTACH]

We had about the same surplus, but TOU-D-A gave me a few more credit towards the account. Bringing me from positive to negative account balance toward Summer/Winter usage.

[gvl]

Alisobob
thanks for the charts. Let me ask a couple of questions to everyone....
say I stay in the current standard plan, say I use 12k power and generate 9k power.....the 3k excess I use will cost what ?? is it 3000/12 which is roughly 250 kw and I pay that as if it is a monthly thing , that is pretty cheap, 250kw of power would be like a $40 bill I guess......

considering TOUDT which is attached below, if I use a/c in the early afternoon I think my panels will make more energy than the a/c will use. A/c is only used when the baby is sleeping (typically) a/c is then used at night around 8pm......midnight etc....

[ATTACH=CONFIG]6346[/ATTACH]

If you're considering TOU I would advise to sit down and try to understand how much energy is used and when for the last 12 months. Hourly consumption data is available for download from SCE. Then use PVWatts calculator to estimate hourly solar production for a particular array size and orientation. Then model monthly charge for the TOU plans available (there are 3), with the goal being you're close to $0 for a 12-moth period. See if you can push any usage to off-peak or super-off-peak, like running a pool pump at night if you have one. Using a WAG for sizing solar under TOU or even total monthly consumption is not a very good idea. Sounds like you are currently on the tiered domestic rate plan where your rates are dependent on how much you consume irrespective of when it happens. If you want to stay on this plan the analysis is simpler, basically all you need to do is to estimate your total monthly production for each month using say PVWatts again and make sure you produce enough energy to offset your total usage each month so that the energy you're billed for is all in tier 1. TOU with net metering can potentially save you more with a properly sized array and controlled usage, but it requires more careful up-front analysis.

[rhedayi]

It will cost whatever the applicable tiered rate is. Or do you have a flat rate as well as a time-independent rate?

I don't know to be honest, tier 1 to 4 based on usage,I think tier one is like 350. Two is like 150 more. Etc

[inetdog]

Alisobob
thanks for the charts. Let me ask a couple of questions to everyone....
say I stay in the current standard plan, say I use 12k power and generate 9k power.....the 3k excess I use will cost what ??

It will cost whatever the applicable tiered rate is. Or do you have a flat rate as well as a time-independent rate?