Feedback on proposals for San Diego: LG/Hanwha + Solar Edge

[jd31]

Hi all,

Obligatory 'thank you' to all those who contribute to this forum. Amazing resource for a newbie like me. I received great referrals from several forum members.

I previously posted about possibly going the DIY-esque route (buy my own hardware and have someone install it) but have since decided to contract with a company for both the hardware and install. I've narrowed my search down to two highly recommended solar companies in San Diego. Both companies have 20+ years of electrical contractor experience, 5+ years of solar installation experience, and do not subcontract. Here are the proposals that I'm considering:

Option # 1
System size (STC): 8,160 watts
Panels: Hanwha panels (qty 32)
Inverter: Solar Edge 7600
Price (pre-tax incentive): $24,999 or $3.06 /watt

Option # 2
System size (STC) 6,720 watts
Panels: LG280 (qty 24)
Inverter: Solar Edge 7600
Price (pre-tax incentive): $22,243 or $3.31 /watt

Disregard the difference in system sizes. Each installer used a different set of assumptions on how many panels I could fit/want on my roof. I plan to normalize the size and therefore am focusing primarily on $/watt and panel reliability.

Any feedback on these two proposals in terms of equipment and cost?

Thanks in advance!

[J.P.M.]

Hi all,

Obligatory 'thank you' to all those who contribute to this forum. Amazing resource for a newbie like me. I received great referrals from several forum members.

I previously posted about possibly going the DIY-esque route (buy my own hardware and have someone install it) but have since decided to contract with a company for both the hardware and install. I've narrowed my search down to two highly recommended solar companies in San Diego. Both companies have 20+ years of electrical contractor experience, 5+ years of solar installation experience, and do not subcontract. Here are the proposals that I'm considering:

Option # 1
System size (STC): 8,160 watts
Panels: Hanwha panels (qty 32)
Inverter: Solar Edge 7600
Price (pre-tax incentive): $24,999 or $3.06 /watt

Option # 2
System size (STC) 6,720 watts
Panels: LG280 (qty 24)
Inverter: Solar Edge 7600
Price (pre-tax incentive): $22,243 or $3.31 /watt

Disregard the difference in system sizes. Each installer used a different set of assumptions on how many panels I could fit/want on my roof. I plan to normalize the size and therefore am focusing primarily on $/watt and panel reliability.

Any feedback on these two proposals in terms of equipment and cost?

Thanks in advance!

1.) What does "normalize the size" mean ? The larger system will probably put out about 20% more power over a year's time than the smaller one. Depending on how much either system's output is as a %age of annual usage and how your billed, probably tiered rates, the smaller system may well be more cost effective from the standpoint that it may well replace electricity you are paying more for because that elec. is more likely at a tier tier level. The larger system will be displacing more electricity, but that electricity will tend to be at a lower tier rate.

2.) You mentioned Spanish tile for your roof. I'd be sure I understand, whichever vendor you choose, what they plan to do with the tiles where the array will be located. Spanish tiles are a PITA for breakage and some vendors want to remove them from under the arrays and replace them with nothing or composition shingles. Some of us (probably without skin in the game) are of the opinion that may not be the best way to help ensure against leaks.

3.) what's your annual usage ? By month ?

[jd31]

1.) What does "normalize the size" mean ? The larger system will probably put out about 20% more power over a year's time than the smaller one. Depending on how much either system's output is as a %age of annual usage and how your billed, probably tiered rates, the smaller system may well be more cost effective from the standpoint that it may well replace electricity you are paying more for because that elec. is more likely at a tier tier level. The larger system will be displacing more electricity, but that electricity will tend to be at a lower tier rate.

2.) You mentioned Spanish tile for your roof. I'd be sure I understand, whichever vendor you choose, what they plan to do with the tiles where the array will be located. Spanish tiles are a PITA for breakage and some vendors want to remove them from under the arrays and replace them with nothing or composition shingles. Some of us (probably without skin in the game) are of the opinion that may not be the best way to help ensure against leaks.

3.) what's your annual usage ? By month ?

J.P.M,

Thanks for the reply.

1) I should have been more clear with my 'normalize' comment. In short I meant that I will have each company propose a system of equal size and expect the economics ($/watt) to remain roughly the same.

2) Thanks for the call out on the Spanish roof tiles. I'll be sure to ask both how they plan to handle that aspect of the install.

3) I've only been in my current home for 3 months so I don't have a lot of electric-use history here. But here are some data points:

- our first electric bill, which was based on only 10 days of usage, was $140. It was abnormally hot in SD so we ran our AC a lot.
- $150 / month for the past two months (albeit without running AC and winter rates)
- at our last home solar companies proposed a 6,800 watt system for 100% offset. Our new home is 1,000 sq ft bigger and we want a little headroom in case we add a pool down the road.

[J.P.M.]

I forgot to ask : What are the planned azimuth and tilt angles of the proposed array location ? Also, Coastal, inland , mountain or desert billing region
? And finally, do you also get nat. gas from SDG & E or are you all electric ?

Add : question was what's your usage, not your bills.

[Alisobob]

J.P.M,

Thanks for the reply.

2) Thanks for the call out on the Spanish roof tiles. I'll be sure to ask both how they plan to handle that aspect of the install.

spanish.JPG

My neighbor is installing over spanish tiles... this is the method they are using... flashing each tile.

[dtfischer]

Those spanish tiles look like concrete spanish style tiles that are made by companies like lifetile.

I have cement tiles that look similar and we used that same mounting system. I repapered the roof a few weeks before those went in and we've had two heavy storms since then, no leaks and don't expect any. I watched them install, seems like quite a few "seals" to keep water out.

[Alisobob]

Our new home is 1,000 sq ft bigger and we want a little headroom in case we add a pool down the road.

Many of the recent threads discuss energy conservation first ( like with LED lighting) before adding generation ( like with solar)

Conservation is less expensive than generation.

Make sure you fully explore this, before deciding on a system.

Its pretty important.

[thejq]

I can't comment on the Hanwha panels, but the LGs I have have been flawless. Per http://www.civicsolar.com/product/ha...wht-soar-panel and http://www.civicsolar.com/product/lg...ht-solar-panel the price differential is about $0.35/W. So your option 2 seems a little better in value.

As for the roof, my installer did similar to Bob's neighbor's. There were some breakage, but as shown he brought plenty of spares in case.
DSC_0116 (800x532).jpg

[sensij]

Any feedback on these two proposals in terms of equipment and cost?

Both Hanwha and LG make more than one series of panel, so the specific model number would matter if you want to dig deep into the specs. Hanwha has been making them a few years longer than LG (1999ish vs 2010), but it seems that LG has been successful using their brand recognition quickly become a player. Some people might consider difference in aesthetics to be important (mono vs poly, frame color, back sheet color). By the rating scheme calculated here, LG generally rates higher than Hanwha, but without a close look at the data sheets, it is hard to say why.

[SoCalsolar]

Both pics of roofs are

Both pics of roofs are of concrete S tile roof. Call it Spanish if you must just don't call it a PITA or clay tile because it is not. If it were a clay tile roof then replacing with a comp under the array would be advisable. The S tile roofs in the pics above are a basic installation no comp underlay needed if aesthetics are not a concern. As for Hanwha vs LG both are Korean conglomerates. At the same price point I tend to favor LG as they tend to create and develop their solar product versus Hanwha who bought out an independent solar manufacturer to get into the business. At a ten percent markup in your case slight edge to Hanwha. Although who installs it will likely have more impact on your solar experience than what you put on the roof with these options. I like the solar edge option for your inverters. To be fair to both installers I would recommend soliciting bids that are more similar in size and perhaps even in equipment.

[jd31]

Both pics of roofs are of concrete S tile roof. Call it Spanish if you must just don't call it a PITA or clay tile because it is not. If it were a clay tile roof then replacing with a comp under the array would be advisable. The S tile roofs in the pics above are a basic installation no comp underlay needed if aesthetics are not a concern. As for Hanwha vs LG both are Korean conglomerates. At the same price point I tend to favor LG as they tend to create and develop their solar product versus Hanwha who bought out an independent solar manufacturer to get into the business. At a ten percent markup in your case slight edge to Hanwha. Although who installs it will likely have more impact on your solar experience than what you put on the roof with these options. I like the solar edge option for your inverters. To be fair to both installers I would recommend soliciting bids that are more similar in size and perhaps even in equipment.

Thanks for the input! To be clear, the pictures posted above are not of my home. However, it is in line with my install (I have cement "S" tiles). I spoke to the installers and they both would flash the tiles.

On Wednesday one of the companies will be out to do a site measure. Then I'll know for sure how many tiles I could fit and answer some of the other questions posted in the thread about angle, etc.

To answer a previous poster...I'm located in Poway so sunlight is aplenty.

[jd31]

I wanted to provide an update on my situation and solicit feedback on my options. For the time being, I've narrowed my search down to two installers, the difference being how the panels are installed. Is it worth the premium to go with option # 2 (see below)?

- Equipment is the same for both: LG280 panels with Solar Edge SE7600 inverter and Solar Edge P300 Power Optimizers
- System size: 7,150 watts

Option # 1:
- $3.31 /watts installed before subsidy.
- Installation: "The panels are mounted on racks and these racks are bolted to the roof rafters, so the solar array now becomes part of the roof. In order to do this we remove the concrete tiles where we need to bolt to the roof, then bolt the rack support poles down, seal and flash them, then replace the tiles around them and flash and seal around the tiles."

Option # 2:
- $3.99 /watt before subsidy. This is an initial quote and I know I can get it down.
- Installation: The array will cover 470 square feet. We will remove all of the tiles if that amount of surface area + a 12 inch perimeter around all of the panels. Then we will install a Certainteed (100 years old, $60,000,000,000 company) diamondback titanium synthetic underlayment. Under the panels we will install composition shingle and then install the solar system. Once it's completed we will retile like a 'picture frame' the 12" perimeter to give an inlay, low profile look. Re roofing in the future will be a breeze.

Option # 2 is boasting that I'm basically getting a new roof under the solar panels so that if I need to re-roof one day, that the roofing company would just need to work around the solar, i.e., install "will be a breeze". Also, they would flush mount the solar for a more aesthetically pleasing look versus the panels sitting 6" above the tile.

Question:
- all else being equal, is the installation process for option # 2 superior to that of option # 1? If yes, would you pay a premium for this type of install?

[sensij]

My gut feel is that Option 1 gives you the better roof. In option 2, at the bottom of the slope where it transitions from shingles to tile again, it sounds like the underlay is the only line of protection against water, and the edge of that bottom tile could create a dam that gives the water plenty of time to go where it doesn't belong. If the bottom edge was shingles all the way to the eve, it would sound pretty good to me.

How old is your roof? Does it need servicing, anyway?

[jd31]

My gut feel is that Option 1 gives you the better roof. In option 2, at the bottom of the slope where it transitions from shingles to tile again, it sounds like the underlay is the only line of protection against water, and the edge of that bottom tile could create a dam that gives the water plenty of time to go where it doesn't belong. If the bottom edge was shingles all the way to the eve, it would sound pretty good to me.

How old is your roof? Does it need servicing, anyway?

Thanks for the reply! That was my concern as well, that the transition between the shingles and the tile could cause issues. I should ask about that.

When I purchased my house 6 months ago I got the roof inspected. The membrane (S tile cement roof) was in good condition. The estimated life was 10 to 15 years, but listed as "excellent". So it's not something I need anytime soon.

[J.P.M.]

Option # 1 is, IMO, a better way to do it.

Option #2 will create a potential leak path for water. Don't do it.

A thought experiment: You go with option #2. Your array is on the roof with, say, a 3' clearance of roof between the top of the array and the roof ridge. It rains. water that hits the roof above the array flows down under the array onto the (new) shingles. The water continues under the array and eventually gets to the portion of the roof where the (new) composition shingles meet the existing (remaining) concrete tile. That water will now flow under the concrete tile. This is a built in path to get water where it is probably not wanted. The concrete tiles are admittedly not waterproof, but they are pretty effective at keeping almost all of the water away from the rest of the roof. This system is like a funnel leading under that existing tile. It's a B.S. path to built in problems.

That, however, is not the end of the story. All that water will carry with it various other stuff that falls onto a roof - bird crap, dead animals, bugs, leaves spalled off roof material, whatever. That stuff will get under the tiles, with the water, with at least 2 results. One being that it will slow down the rate of drainage from under the concrete tile. The second is that all that stuff, will sit under the tile in an environment that will probably stay quite moist due to lack of ventilation. It will also get quite warm during the day. That allows two or three conditions to exist that mold loves: moisture and heat and darkness. So, You have a created a breeding ground for moisture retention, mold growth and rot, not to mention the smell of all the rotting flesh and fermenting guano. A swamp on your roof of your own making.

But wait - there's more ! Someday, you, or a subsequent owner will want to remove that array for any number of reasons, known or unknown at this time - better performing equipment, new owners want something else, whatever. It may be very difficult to match the existing old roof tiles and appearance will be a problem of some concern.

I'd go with option # 1, have the paper under the existing tile under the array replaced and double flash the standoffs as that vendor seems to be saying. Just make sure they hit all the rafters.

If you are in an HOA, check their CC & R's. Some HOA's are wising up to this scam.