I just had a 8KW system installed by an installer. Now I don't trust them...

[derekc]

I am surprised you would choose to burn your bridge with the installer over an issue like this. Powerline communications are notoriously difficult, and by choosing to buy a system based on that, you are surely taking on some of the risk. What if a year from now you add a ceiling fan and it fouls up the communication (I've had this experience). Would you have expected the installer to come back and make the Envoy work?

Anyway, now that you have taken an adversarial approach with the installer, I hope that a more significant problem does not occur. I think I would have waited at least until the first rain storm to take the position you have, just to make sure the roof has no leaks. Sure, you can resolve something like that in court, but maintaining a good relationship with the installer would have been a much less painful alternative.

I didn't know "Powerline communications are notoriously difficult."
I insisted on paying only after the job is complete. I still believe in that and monitoring is part of it.
If they are not willing to fix to get paid, I doubt if I will be able to get them to come to fix any problem in the future after getting all paid up. I would rather take back some $ now and keep it for future DIY repair. Solar panel system is not rocket science. Now they (or Enphase) don't even provide me per panel monitoring, how do I know if one panel has gone dead and they know if and not tell me? I am a DIYer for most of the stuff around the house. Too bad the city has to have an installer for solar panels.

The question remains is will I get warranty from SolarWorld and Enphase for their parts? 25 years is long time. How do people handle warranty of their solar panel system if their installer has gone out of business?

[sensij]

I am surprised you would choose to burn your bridge with the installer over an issue like this. Powerline communications are notoriously difficult, and by choosing to buy a system based on that, you are surely taking on some of the risk. What if a year from now you add a ceiling fan and it fouls up the communication (I've had this experience). Would you have expected the installer to come back and make the Envoy work?

Anyway, now that you have taken an adversarial approach with the installer, I hope that a more significant problem does not occur. I think I would have waited at least until the first rain storm to take the position you have, just to make sure the roof has no leaks. Sure, you can resolve something like that in court, but maintaining a good relationship with the installer would have been a much less painful alternative.

[sdold]

144kHz is the envoy is talking to the micro-inverters at. Thanks for the info. So, I will go thru the ring 3 times then. I will do on the hot wires only, right? I wonder if I can do the wrap around like this so that I don't have to disconnect any wires. I will try and report back.

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I don't know if that will work, but it's worth a try. I put my toroids on the hot leads only (leading to the sub panel) and they worked fine.

[derekc]

They use different "Mixes" to attenuate different frequencies. I'm not certain but I think the inverters use something relatively low, like 100 KHz, which is below the frequencies most people need to attenuate . It's possible the one from the monitor was for a higher frequency range. If Enphase sells toroids,they are probably the right ones. Also, you mentioned number of turns. The impedance value, which is what you need more of, goes up as the square of the number of turns, so do at least one turn and more if you can.

144kHz is the envoy is talking to the micro-inverters at. Thanks for the info. So, I will go thru the ring 3 times then. I will do on the hot wires only, right? I wonder if I can do the wrap around like this so that I don't have to disconnect any wires. I will try and report back.

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[silversaver]

wait a min. are you saying your problem is from micro inverters to Envoy, not from Envoy to your router?

[sdold]

They use different "Mixes" to attenuate different frequencies. I'm not certain but I think the inverters use something relatively low, like 100 KHz, which is below the frequencies most people need to attenuate . It's possible the one from the monitor was for a higher frequency range. If Enphase sells toroids,they are probably the right ones. Also, you mentioned number of turns. The impedance value, which is what you need more of, goes up as the square of the number of turns, so do at least one turn and more if you can.

Do you get good communication by switching off other circuits? If you do, it shouldn't be too hard to get this right. You'll be happy with the way it works once it's going, it's a really good system.

[derekc]

Your solar is working, just the powerline communication has issue. Like I said, just unglug and re-plug in the powerline module, it will update the data. Again, you will not get instantaneous output. All the data will be delay. If you really cannot solve the communication issue, then switch to WiFi, all you need is a WiFi extender to your wireless router.

Or get a new set of Powerline modules.

I don't see how a simple fix can cause so much of problem.

You are confused. Wifi or ethernet has NOTHING to do with the power line communication signal. Unplugging and replugging the envoy will NOT address the interference problem if that device is still on.
What powerline modules? Do you know Envoy?

[derekc]

There are some ferrite toroid devices that clamp over wires and cables, so that you don't need to disconnect anything, and I'm sure that wouldn't invalidate any warranty. Or at least you could remove them if they don't work. Digi-Key, Mouser, and other on-line retailers should have them. We use them a lot at work for RF isolation.

That was what I first tried. I took off a clip-on one off my monitor video cable but it did nothing. I am a network engineer, not an electrical engineer and it seems different ferrite toroid has different strengh. In the troubleshooting guide, they said they use EPCOS B64290L82X87 which has a 50mm OD. 50MM is big, isn't it. I wish that is a clip on but no. That means I have to remove the break to install. No problem with that.

I will buy some and fix it myself, then officially claim they had refused to address the problem, leaving me no choice but to fix it myself.

[derekc]

I did. Luckily I had installed a sub-panel for the solar panels, which also has the breaker and dedicated outlet for the Envoy, so it made it easy to isolate the Envoy from the rest of the house, but still have it "see" the inverters. I used one separate toroid on each hot leg, wrapped one turn each. My system went from no bars, no communication to full bars and no problem communicating.

Here's what I would do (besides trying to get the installer to take care of it): During the day, when the inverters are running, turn off everything in the house and shut off all of the other branch circuits, leaving only the solar panels and the envoy connected to the bus, and powered. You'll have to leave one circuit on to run the Envoy, try to make it one that is electrically "close" to the panels and make sure every other thing on that circuit is turned off. See if it communicates after a few minutes. If it does, start turning on one branch circuit at a time in the panel along with the devices that are on that circuit (like the computers, anything else that communicates over power lines, etc.). You can watch the bars on the Envoy as you turn things on. If you find one or two branch circuits that seem to cause trouble, it will be easy to isolate those with toroids, and you will probably only need to use a single toroid on the hot wire at the breaker.

You might have received a pair of Ethernet powerline bridges with your Envoy, to be used instead of an Ethernet cable. Unplug those too, if you are using them, to rule them out. Also, I have a similar pair of devices connecting my router to my TV. They are always running, and I suspect they might have been what was interfering with the Envoy, but I never unplugged them to find out. And when I tried to use the powerline bridges that came with the Envoy, they interfered with the ones running my TV, so I couldn't use them anyway. Those things work great, but I suspect they may cause trouble with the Envoy.

I wouldn't expect a solar company to have any idea how to deal with RF interference, or to even know what a toroid is or does.

I know what you meant. Put the envoy at the subpanel and install a toroid on the main panel where the solar circuit connects. But in my case there is no slot for adding a 5A circuit on the solar subpanel. Yes, I have to find the interfering circuit and put a toroid on it and hope no other things in the house is causing interference.

But monitoring is part of the deal and they have not completed their job. They NEED to know what interference is and how to use toroid to solve the problem.

[sdold]

There are some ferrite toroid devices that clamp over wires and cables, so that you don't need to disconnect anything, and I'm sure that wouldn't invalidate any warranty. Or at least you could remove them if they don't work. Digi-Key, Mouser, and other on-line retailers should have them. We use them a lot at work for RF isolation.

[derekc]

If it is primarily that the Envoy monitoring is receiving intermittent communications from the Enphase units, they communicate via powerine communications, which can be impacted by noise and other interference on your home electrical wiring. I had a lot of challenges finding a power outlet anywhere in the house that allowed the Envoy to get a solid signal, and the ones closest to the actual circuit breakers were some of the worst.

If yours is a similar situation, you can place the blame on them, but they being able to isolate what is causing the interference on your wiring could be quite difficult; more likely the easiest thing is just to move the Envoy around to different outlets around the house. Even if they isolate some appliance or electronics that is causing the communication issue, you'll have to agree to unplug it.

Yeap, situation is same. I have actually done a lot of troubleshooting and I 99% know which circuit is causing the intereference. I asked them to ship me some ferrite torroids and maybe a replacement envoy (just in case) so that I can get this over with and I did offer to do it myself but they ignored me.

Now it is not how to fix but with the fact that they are not willing to get it fixed, how do I deal with it.

[derekc]

Is your Envoy on Wifi, Power Line or CAT5 cable?

CAT5 cable shouldn't have any problem since they are direct communication. unplug and plug in again.

If your setup is under Wifi, check your WiFi signal if within the range.

Power line communication... then unplug and plug in the power modual.


Most of people don't tell the whole sotry...... If your solar really have problem, installer will take care of it. If you like to have additional monitoring service not cover by original term with installer, you can call Enphase to add individual panel monitoring. Envoy monitoring is not instantaneous, it has 5 to 30 min delay.

Envoy is not wifi. To the internet side, it is using ethernet (and I have an access point right by it), to the micro-inverter side, it is using the 120V powerline to communicate to the micro-inverters. This is the problem as there is one or more electrical devices in the house causing interference.

Unplugging and replugging would not solve the problem if the interference is still there.

I am telling the whole story. The envoy monitoring is part of the deal.

[sdold]

BTW, anyone has experience installing those ferrite toroids? Hot and neutral or just hot wire? One pass or two, three passes thru the ring?

I did. Luckily I had installed a sub-panel for the solar panels, which also has the breaker and dedicated outlet for the Envoy, so it made it easy to isolate the Envoy from the rest of the house, but still have it "see" the inverters. I used one separate toroid on each hot leg, wrapped one turn each. My system went from no bars, no communication to full bars and no problem communicating.

Here's what I would do (besides trying to get the installer to take care of it): During the day, when the inverters are running, turn off everything in the house and shut off all of the other branch circuits, leaving only the solar panels and the envoy connected to the bus, and powered. You'll have to leave one circuit on to run the Envoy, try to make it one that is electrically "close" to the panels and make sure every other thing on that circuit is turned off. See if it communicates after a few minutes. If it does, start turning on one branch circuit at a time in the panel along with the devices that are on that circuit (like the computers, anything else that communicates over power lines, etc.). You can watch the bars on the Envoy as you turn things on. If you find one or two branch circuits that seem to cause trouble, it will be easy to isolate those with toroids, and you will probably only need to use a single toroid on the hot wire at the breaker.

You might have received a pair of Ethernet powerline bridges with your Envoy, to be used instead of an Ethernet cable. Unplug those too, if you are using them, to rule them out. Also, I have a similar pair of devices connecting my router to my TV. They are always running, and I suspect they might have been what was interfering with the Envoy, but I never unplugged them to find out. And when I tried to use the powerline bridges that came with the Envoy, they interfered with the ones running my TV, so I couldn't use them anyway. Those things work great, but I suspect they may cause trouble with the Envoy.

I wouldn't expect a solar company to have any idea how to deal with RF interference, or to even know what a toroid is or does.

[silversaver]

Your solar is working, just the powerline communication has issue. Like I said, just unglug and re-plug in the powerline module, it will update the data. Again, you will not get instantaneous output. All the data will be delay. If you really cannot solve the communication issue, then switch to WiFi, all you need is a WiFi extender to your wireless router.

Or get a new set of Powerline modules.

I don't see how a simple fix can cause so much of problem.

[derekc]

Internet access is trouble-free. I always get +WEB.
It is the powerline communication signal that randomly and often drop from 4 bar to none. The envoy thing does not give real time info. It takes 15 mins to see if any chances actually pinpoint the trouble circuit but I actually kind of pintpoint it is some LED tubes in the garage causing the zero bar but again should they get this done? I asked for some ferrite toroids and they have not even responded so now the issue is will they provide future warranty when/if something goes bad? If not, then I better deal with it now (since I have not paid them in full) than later with a lawsuit.