diy solar systems which are good and which to stay away from

[SunEagle]

I did my system start to finish and helped another friend in another city here in CA through his permit process and installation, and there were hurdles in the permit process, but all of them seemed to have a reasonable purpose and none of them were insurmountable. Unless your AHJ is much more restrictive than mine, there isn't anyone stopping you from doing this if you're willing to work within the system. There are plenty of companies that will sell you panels and everything else you need.

I'll never forget a friend of mine who wanted to learn to fly airplanes, but didn't want to work within the system and follow the usual path of getting real flight training and working within the FAA regulations. To him, the government was there to keep him from doing whatever he wanted to do. He figured he's learn to fly on his own. He bought a Cessna 150, flew with a friend or two, figured he could do it himself and up he went solo, many times, even taking his girlfriend along. You can probably guess the ending to this story. He eventually grew tired of the high cost of flying, took up other hobbies, and now lives in a nudist colony in Southern California.

Doesn't the Government regulate Nudist colonies?

[russ]

I totally agree with you on this. If I install myself I'm looking at (before credits) 35k, if I use Solar City it was (before credits) 80k. That's an estimated 55k difference! And certainly worth a week of my time for the physical, and here and there time with the planning and with the county permit office.

SunEagle has very good points though with the permitting process, but my county has been helpful in the past in telling me exactly what they need, so I can provide it to them for approval, such as when I built my detached garage.

You got a bad quote apparently - anyone accepting that offer is a fool - or worse.

[sdold]

I did my system start to finish and helped another friend in another city here in CA through his permit process and installation, and there were hurdles in the permit process, but all of them seemed to have a reasonable purpose and none of them were insurmountable. Unless your AHJ is much more restrictive than mine, there isn't anyone stopping you from doing this if you're willing to work within the system. There are plenty of companies that will sell you panels and everything else you need.

I'll never forget a friend of mine who wanted to learn to fly airplanes, but didn't want to work within the system and follow the usual path of getting real flight training and working within the FAA regulations. To him, the government was there to keep him from doing whatever he wanted to do. He figured he's learn to fly on his own. He bought a Cessna 150, flew with a friend or two, figured he could do it himself and up he went solo, many times, even taking his girlfriend along. You can probably guess the ending to this story. He eventually grew tired of the high cost of flying, took up other hobbies, and now lives in a nudist colony in Southern California.

[richw]

I give my boys peanut butter and fluff sandwiches as a treat

[russ]

I as an engineer and a businessman am surprised that there isn't a straight forward plan, What does being an engineer have to do with that?

Especially the panel companies who could skid up 5kw of panels and ship it out for $5500.You can buy a lot more than 5 kW of panels for 5500$

A DIY plan , a bill of materials, a plan , books video bada bing. No sweat - look on youtube - lots of videos - most of them are BS but then they are simple

I am a machine builder who makes his own control panels so executing this should just be an effort.

I bought a book but it has block diagrams and crude sketches that can only get you in trouble.

Frankly I have NO interest other than the financial. If done by myself a 5 or 6 KW system which
in parts should cost about $8000 and save me about $1200 a year so a 6 year pay out. Your estimating ability is rather questionable
I have heard similar installations (hear/say) that bought installation for 14 to 16 thousand. 3.50$ per watt DC is probably reasonable

If that is the case then the economics are junk and it shouldn't be done Then don't do it


I am old enough to remember when auto parts would only be sold to Car repair shops not the general public.
It was cronyism to protect high profits.

I am 69 and do not remember any such time - we always had parts houses where you could buy - but then that was in a small town where people were accustomed to doing things themselves.

All in all your rant has zero foundation and is based on fluff.

[gte]

I totally agree with you on this. If I install myself I'm looking at (before credits) 35k, if I use Solar City it was (before credits) 80k. That's an estimated 55k difference! And certainly worth a week of my time for the physical, and here and there time with the planning and with the county permit office.

SunEagle has very good points though with the permitting process, but my county has been helpful in the past in telling me exactly what they need, so I can provide it to them for approval, such as when I built my detached garage.

I as an engineer and a businessman am surprised that there isn't a straight forward plan,

Especially the panel companies who could skid up 5kw of panels and ship it out for $5500

A DIY plan , a bill of materials, a plan , books video bada bing.

I am a machine builder who makes his own control panels so executing this should just be an effort.

I bought a book but it has block diagrams and crude sketches that can only get you in trouble.

Frankly I have NO interest other than the financial. If done by myself a 5 or 6 KW system which
in parts should cost about $8000 and save me about $1200 a year so a 6 year pay out.
I have heard similar installations (hear/say) that bought installation for 14 to 16 thousand.

If that is the case then the economics are junk and it shouldn't be done


I am old enough to remember when auto parts would only be sold to Car repair shops not the general public.
It was cronyism to protect high profits.

[SunEagle]

I as an engineer and a businessman am surprised that there isn't a straight forward plan,

Especially the panel companies who could skid up 5kw of panels and ship it out for $5500

A DIY plan , a bill of materials, a plan , books video bada bing.

I am a machine builder who makes his own control panels so executing this should just be an effort.

I bought a book but it has block diagrams and crude sketches that can only get you in trouble.

Frankly I have NO interest other than the financial. If done by myself a 5 or 6 KW system which
in parts should cost about $8000 and save me about $1200 a year so a 6 year pay out.
I have heard similar installations (hear/say) that bought installation for 14 to 16 thousand.

If that is the case then the economics are junk and it shouldn't be done


I am old enough to remember when auto parts would only be sold to Car repair shops not the general public.
It was cronyism to protect high profits.

There is no question that someone that understands all of the requirements for a grid tie system to their POCO will be able to save installation costs by purchasing the parts and doing it themselves.

Unfortunately every state and municipality have slightly different requirements including who is "qualified" to do what for the installation. This list of work may include all or part of the Electrical (including final connection) as well as the drawings and details needed to gain a permit to do the work.

Places like Florida have additional hoops to jump through concerning HUD wind loading for hurricanes. Other states require set back to allow the Fire department to safely access your roof without worrying about the pv panels being in the way. Other states may require a full roof structure study to determine the affect of the additional load for the panels with 3 foot of snow on top. (Look at Buffalo where there are roofs now collapsing due to the lake affect snow).

With so many different requirements, a DIY person needs to be cautious and really understand what requirements need to be met to satisfy the local inspector and POCO. Some people are fully qualified to perform the entire installation. Most are not and think they can save thousands by doing it themselves and then get mad when they run into the legal roadblocks.

As you indicated it all comes down to economics. Is it worth installing a pv system (professional or DIY) based on the cost and savings? As of today it is worth it in maybe half of the US but not so much in the other half.

[richw]

I as an engineer and a businessman am surprised that there isn't a straight forward plan,

Especially the panel companies who could skid up 5kw of panels and ship it out for $5500

A DIY plan , a bill of materials, a plan , books video bada bing.

I am a machine builder who makes his own control panels so executing this should just be an effort.

I bought a book but it has block diagrams and crude sketches that can only get you in trouble.

Frankly I have NO interest other than the financial. If done by myself a 5 or 6 KW system which
in parts should cost about $8000 and save me about $1200 a year so a 6 year pay out.
I have heard similar installations (hear/say) that bought installation for 14 to 16 thousand.

If that is the case then the economics are junk and it shouldn't be done


I am old enough to remember when auto parts would only be sold to Car repair shops not the general public.
It was cronyism to protect high profits.

[SunEagle]

Thanks Andy - really appreciate you taking time to point out some of the things that may be areas that can trip up a DIY installation.


One thing in there I didn't recognize: "utilities require Protection and Control and Witness Test Procedures."
That's not phrasing I've seen before (even after looking at my utility's interconnect requirements)
Can you explain what that means? Or how it's done by installers? (ex. is it just tripping the breaker and seeing that the system shuts down? Or is this something just for >10kW systems which would explain why I haven't seen it.)

That regulation may have to do with the anti-islanding controls in the inverter. The Utility may want to "see" the inverter disconnect from the grid under all issues that could put their people in harms way.

[gte]

@PVAndy and sdold, thank you for sharing experience.

[wirebender06]

Great info

thanks for your input Andy, its very useful!

[foo1bar]

Pardon me for jumping in here. Much of what I've read here is good information. I am not a novice. I head the engineering department of a fairly decent size design / install company. I've been involved from concept to installation for several thousand systems.

However that being said I finally got around to installing a 15 kW STC DC system at my own house. I certainly contemplated doing the panel install myself, but opted to have 3 of our best installers do it on weekends. It took 3 very seasoned installers 2 days to install 60 panels. I would still be at it. I'm doing the electrical myself and have been at it for several weekends,

If you not familiar with the process at least here in Conn / Mass / New York systems over 10 kW AC go through a different review process to be approved for interconnect. I end up doing reactive power diagrams to get many of these systems approved to energize to guarantee grid stability.

Existing roof structure, live load, dead load, snow load, and wind uplift all require a Professional Engineers calculation and stamped drawings and calculations to get building gpermits. The utilities require Protection and Control and Witness Test Procedures. Again possible for a DIY to do, but probably tough the first time.

In most areas the Utility requires an AC Disconnect in close proximity to the Utility Meter. Also for those of you in states where NEC 2014 has been adopted don't forget that you need to comply with "Rapid Shutdown" and Fire Code requirements relative to panel location and setbacks. Another tidbit that I believe is in effect in CA is that the racking and panel together must be certified as a unit not to degrade the fire class rating of the existing roof (A,B or C) This can be a big deal to accomplish

Just wanted to give you a couple of points to consider- they may not all be applicable to your system. Also remember what you can interconnect may be limited by existing utility transformer and line loads.

Andy

NABCEP Certified Installation Professional
PV Design Engineer

Thanks Andy - really appreciate you taking time to point out some of the things that may be areas that can trip up a DIY installation.


One thing in there I didn't recognize: "utilities require Protection and Control and Witness Test Procedures."
That's not phrasing I've seen before (even after looking at my utility's interconnect requirements)
Can you explain what that means? Or how it's done by installers? (ex. is it just tripping the breaker and seeing that the system shuts down? Or is this something just for >10kW systems which would explain why I haven't seen it.)

[PVAndy]

Pardon me for jumping in here. Much of what I've read here is good information. I am not a novice. I head the engineering department of a fairly decent size design / install company. I've been involved from concept to installation for several thousand systems.

However that being said I finally got around to installing a 15 kW STC DC system at my own house. I certainly contemplated doing the panel install myself, but opted to have 3 of our best installers do it on weekends. It took 3 very seasoned installers 2 days to install 60 panels. I would still be at it. I'm doing the electrical myself and have been at it for several weekends,

If you not familiar with the process at least here in Conn / Mass / New York systems over 10 kW AC go through a different review process to be approved for interconnect. I end up doing reactive power diagrams to get many of these systems approved to energize to guarantee grid stability.

Existing roof structure, live load, dead load, snow load, and wind uplift all require a Professional Engineers calculation and stamped drawings and calculations to get building gpermits. The utilities require Protection and Control and Witness Test Procedures. Again possible for a DIY to do, but probably tough the first time.

In most areas the Utility requires an AC Disconnect in close proximity to the Utility Meter. Also for those of you in states where NEC 2014 has been adopted don't forget that you need to comply with "Rapid Shutdown" and Fire Code requirements relative to panel location and setbacks. Another tidbit that I believe is in effect in CA is that the racking and panel together must be certified as a unit not to degrade the fire class rating of the existing roof (A,B or C) This can be a big deal to accomplish

Just wanted to give you a couple of points to consider- they may not all be applicable to your system. Also remember what you can interconnect may be limited by existing utility transformer and line loads.

Andy

NABCEP Certified Installation Professional
PV Design Engineer

[J.P.M.]

So educate me. What goes into it that I'm missing?
I see these 5-8kW systems go up in 1-2 days with a crew of 2 or 3.

The amount of time I will spend on it (beyond time I'd use if only hiring an installer) I am estimating to be about 8 days.
Even if I said $1K/day, I still am better off with DIY.
(And I'm not using $1k/day since this is fun for me)

It's a free country. Pay your money, take your choice. Enjoy. I for one would like to know how it works out for you - the good, the bad & the ugly, if you feel up to sharing when done.

Good luck.

[russ]

So educate me. What goes into it that I'm missing?
I see these 5-8kW systems go up in 1-2 days with a crew of 2 or 3.

The amount of time I will spend on it (beyond time I'd use if only hiring an installer) I am estimating to be about 8 days.
Even if I said $1K/day, I still am better off with DIY.
(And I'm not using $1k/day since this is fun for me)

please do so - just don't whine when you find all sorts of things you haven't considered.