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  • sensij
    Solar Fanatic
    • Sep 2014
    • 5074

    #31
    For the analysis I discussed earlier in the thread, the assumption of an upfront cash purchase was assumed. However, the existence of very low financing rate (<2%) seems attractive and requires some more thought on integration into a model. Let's say you have $10k on hand, and intend to purchase a $10k PV system. Let's look at two choices:

    1) Spend $10k cash on the PV system
    2) Invest the $10k in a hypothetical risk-free bond yielding 2.2% compounded annually, maturing in 10 years. Finance the PV system for zero-down at 1.99% for 10 years.

    In Option 2, the monthly payment amortizes to $91.92. At the end of 10 years, the total spent would be $11030.40. However, you would also collect $12430.93 from your bond that matured, netting about $720 into your pocket after taxes. It is like owning a mint, right?

    What that first cut doesn't account for is the fact that the $91.92 monthly payment has to come from somewhere, and has time value as well. To keep the comparison fair, the Option 1 could also be given $91.92 / mo to invest, and although an equivalent risk-free bond maturing in progressively shorter amounts of time would not have the same yield, let's say for now that it would. At the end of 10 years, the interest earned on those monthly investments would total up to about $742 after taxes. Based on that result, Option 1 is better by $20, but requires the work of remembering to make the $91.92 investment each month, unless you set up an auto-invest system. Option 2 would have the $91.92 bill each month, which your lender is unlikely to let you forget.

    Even though it isn't a fair comparison, this first cut could probably be a realistic prediction of what someone might do. That extra $91.92 per month might disappear into some soft of discretionary spending that would otherwise have been done without. In other words, by requiring the upfront investment in Option 2 in parallel to the financing, even though it is slightly non-optimal, the expected return might actually be higher.

    Another way to guarantee that two scenarios are being compared fairly is to require that the monthly finance payment comes out of the account where the $10k was invested. Since there is less money overall in the system being invested at the 2.2% rate, and there is no way to forget making an investment, Option 1 comes out even further ahead, by about $240.

    Of course, investments with some risk might offer a higher return than the risk-free 2.2%, and once the after tax yield exceeds the APR of the loan, Option 2 will come out ahead. For example, with a 6% investment return, and with payments coming out of the investment account, the net benefit would be about $1534 after 10 years.

    Ok, so now what? Does that $1534 mean that the PV system is "cheaper" than it seems? On a relative basis, the answer should be yes, if the calculation for the all cash purchase had yielded a positive value, then the financed version will be more positive, or will break even quicker. Using that same 6% discount rate, it could also be said that $1534 in 10 years from now is worth $857 dollars today. In other words, by going the financing route under these assumptions, you could take the original $10k system cash flow analysis, change the year 0 cost of the PV system from $10000 to $9143, and leave the rest of the cash flow unchanged, and see how much more quickly the PV system reaches your desired payback level.

    If you work often with discount rates, the scenario above might seem trivial to you. For me, by working through the example, it helps reinforce exactly what it means when a particular discount rate is used for analysis. A key point is that when reductions in utility bills are projected, what is done with the savings? Does it get spent on something else, invested, or used to pay off debt? The answer to that question (and ultimately the follow-through) is essential to determining what discount rate is appropriate for a given situation.

    Is it worth trying to figure this out? Aren't there calculators that exist to do it automatically? Certainly, SAM does a lot of heavy lifting. My discussion above is built around the net present value concept, and SAM does a good job calculating that. However, to go deeper into payback analysis, there is a lot to learn from what NREL has published showing a detailed comparison of the different metrics that people might use. The NPV based metrics like profitability index and benefit-to-cost ratio are new to me, and I think generally represent my goals in performing the analysis. I will try to understand them better. LCOE, simple payback, IRR, and other methods people might prefer are also discussed, although in conclusion, IRR is dismissed as a poor decision making tool. There is a section on assumption sensitivity, and they cleverly scale the sensitivity into the equivalent purchase price, as I attempted to replicate in my buy vs finance example above.

    Unfortunately, SAM does not generate some of these metrics directly, so it seems that once a cash flow is generated, there is still some work to do (I haven't googled yet to see if there are other calculators). The analysis period in the paper is 30 years, much longer than a typical residential customer is interested in, so it is hard to draw any payback conclusions directly from the paper itself. For anyone who is actually interested in the content of this thread, I thought you might find it interesting in its own right.

    Figuring out how to apply the different metrics to my small 3 kW system will take more time, although I hope to post the results when I do.
    CS6P-260P/SE3000 - http://tiny.cc/ed5ozx

    Comment

    • Jason
      Administrator
      • Dec 2008
      • 990

      #32
      Solar panel return Calculators

      Hi Sensij

      I am Andy the new owner of Solar Panel Talk. I haven't set up myself a login yet so I am still logged in as Jason.

      I think your discussion on how to value solar systems is a very important area of contemplation.

      Typically when looking at an investment you look at it from a perspective of either doing it or not doing it at a point in time. It is very hard to incorporate into any valuation methodology the value of how you might invest the cash flow generated by a project in other things. I think to try and do so may over complicate the issue.

      The discount rate you choose to enter into any financial model depends on the level of risk you perceive to be involved with the investment and the alternative returns you could get from deploying the same capital.

      For most people this should be a simple calculation based on the fact that most people looking at solar are in one of two situations.

      1. They are paying off a home and have a home loan.

      In this case the alternate use of the the capital they might invest in a solar system is to pay down their homeloan and so the value of this return in simply your home loan rate.

      Any number of solar panel calculator on Solar Estimate can tell a consumer their return from installing a home solar power system but it is up to each person to determine whether they use a discount rate higher than their home loan rate to reflect any risk there is with the ongoing running of a solar system. Obviously paying down home loan debt has zero risk and owning a solar system has some risk and so a higher discount rate probably should be applied. However, with home loan rates around 3-4% and returns on solar being better than 10% in many states solar is still a good investment for many people.

      2. A person has paid off their home and has money in the bank.

      In this case a consumer is depleting money in their bank to purchase a solar system so the return from the alternative is the rate of interest they get on money in the bank. Currently maybe 1%. For these people solar seems a no brainer to me as returns on solar systems vary across the country but are always above 5%. In some cases they are up over 15% and so even if the consumer chooses to apply a much higher discount rate to the analysis of the solar investment over the discount rate he or she applies to the choice to have money in the bank a home solar power system seems like a good bet.
      Last edited by Jason; 10-27-2014, 07:42 PM. Reason: typo

      Comment

      • jimqpublic
        Member
        • Oct 2014
        • 50

        #33
        My first post here but since I'm deciding on system size for a grid tie, net metered installation I will comment on my perception:

        In terms of resale value a solar system that offsets part of your use can be valued against the offset utility price and you could calculate a value for that. It could make the buyer feel good about generating some of their own power and the hedge against top-tier utility prices.

        On the other hand a system that nets zero or less than zero annual consumption is a much bigger sell. I can imagine that telling a buyer we haven't paid a power bill in x years would be compelling.

        Jim

        Comment

        • sensij
          Solar Fanatic
          • Sep 2014
          • 5074

          #34
          Originally posted by jimqpublic
          My first post here but since I'm deciding on system size for a grid tie, net metered installation I will comment on my perception:

          In terms of resale value a solar system that offsets part of your use can be valued against the offset utility price and you could calculate a value for that. It could make the buyer feel good about generating some of their own power and the hedge against top-tier utility prices.

          On the other hand a system that nets zero or less than zero annual consumption is a much bigger sell. I can imagine that telling a buyer we haven't paid a power bill in x years would be compelling.

          Jim
          I agree! That is one of the "soft" reasons why I'd really prefer to have a SolarEdge inverter installed. Being able to point to a public website showing the generation history of each panel in the system seems like it would be a great way to show it off to a potential buyer. There a few forum users who have their sites shared... you might look for posts by user "thejq", a link to his is in his signature.
          CS6P-260P/SE3000 - http://tiny.cc/ed5ozx

          Comment

          • SunEagle
            Super Moderator
            • Oct 2012
            • 15124

            #35
            Originally posted by jimqpublic
            My first post here but since I'm deciding on system size for a grid tie, net metered installation I will comment on my perception:

            In terms of resale value a solar system that offsets part of your use can be valued against the offset utility price and you could calculate a value for that. It could make the buyer feel good about generating some of their own power and the hedge against top-tier utility prices.

            On the other hand a system that nets zero or less than zero annual consumption is a much bigger sell. I can imagine that telling a buyer we haven't paid a power bill in x years would be compelling.

            Jim
            While most who want a solar pv system on their home feel it would be a value added appliance you would be surprised by the comments from people that try to sell their home with a pv system (owned or leased) where the desire is not as high as you would imagine.

            Best to talk to a Real Estate person in your area to see what level of desire (or not) a solar pv system adds to the new home buyer's decisions.

            Comment

            • russ
              Solar Fanatic
              • Jul 2009
              • 10360

              #36
              What percentage of homes have solar installed? Few -

              SEIA org loves to throw numbers around knowing people won't understand them - for example

              California has 672 mW installed - the capacity factor is what? 10%? even at 25% it is not much - a 500 mW gas turbine generator is not at all large - 3 GE 100 mW turbines in combined cycle.

              Solar industry research data for the United States. Information and graphs about the growth of the solar energy industry.


              In reality few people have it due to not wanting it or poor location. When tat person buys a house how interested will they be?
              [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

              Comment

              • sensij
                Solar Fanatic
                • Sep 2014
                • 5074

                #37
                Originally posted by russ

                In reality few people have it due to not wanting it or poor location. When that person buys a house how interested will they be?
                I don't think any of us are talking about installing PV in a bad location solely for the purpose of increasing home value. A good install in a good location may not appeal to everyone, but it only takes one buyer who sees the value for that to turn into a sale that would otherwise not have happened. The things buyers respond to sometimes are irrational... and yes, that means it is also possible that someone looks at the roof and says "I don't like the way it looks", even if that system would be saving them $1k / yr.

                I continue to use zero resale value in my own assumptions because it feel safest, although hoping for more than that is not entirely unfounded.
                Last edited by sensij; 10-29-2014, 12:32 PM. Reason: fixed link
                CS6P-260P/SE3000 - http://tiny.cc/ed5ozx

                Comment

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